TONERITE DE-DAMPER - Results, anyone?

[jimbob]

Papawhisky...No Problem-o...a question was asked and while I have ZERO data points to support my theory, I doubt the benefits of this device. I have no idea how much it costs, but I bet the money could be spent much more wisely. By all means....get after it !

[kelvin]

Hello Board,
I do have some experience with the Tone Rite in that a friend of mine of is a builder has one. We roomed together at Wintergrass and one evening we put the Tone Rite on my Gibson f5g. It was on my mandolin for about 8 hours. In the morning I picked up my mandolin and there was for sure a difference. Not something earth shattering but it for sure had an effect on the tone. Kind of a more balanced tone across the strings and a richer tone in general.

Just my two cents worth

Kelvin

[mandotool]

I've been testing for about a month on several mandolins...some older ...some newer.....some a little sleepy...some very sleepy ...
It works like a champ......I highly recommend...

no financial interest...

[barney 59]

I have read about Siminoff's process and a little about the tone -right thingy.I've met Roger and I don't think he's a witchdoctor or snakeoil salesman. I also heard Arthur Sterns "Dude" up front and personal and he swears by it (de-dampening)from what I read here on the Cafe and my -god was it a wonderful sounding mandolin! I have always had vintage mandolins and recently purchased a basically "never been played" two year old mandolin that I really am happy with but I can hear the "green" and am impatient to have this mandolin mellow. If I was in the position to be able to play 6 or 8 hours a day like in the old days then I could probably wake this mandolin up in pretty short order but that is not the case. I would definately give dedamping a try but I don't really want to send it away or purchase a whole pricey machine for a one time shot. I have the guitars I want and the mandolins I want and I won't be buying more for personal consumption in this life time, I don't think. Someone out there that bought and used one of those machines should go into the rental business and I'd be their first customer.

[Mike Snyder]

#2, dibs on the shotgun seat!

[Paul Statman]

OK...enjoy your de-dampener thingy. I hope it works great. I sure wouldn't be buying a mandolin that I thought need some type of enhancement before it even arrived, but to each his own.

Enhancement. Right..that's what we idiot folk think that this device promises to deliver, and what our multi-thousand-dollar mandolins are needing. Now you've got it (not)..

[mandozilla]

Global Warming...Ocean Front Property in Arizona....De-Dampening....
Just play it !

jimbob, first of all, I do play the fire out of my mandolin but I can't play it while I'm asleep or at work etc...that's when the Tonerite does it's thing. If you want to believe it doesn't work or is a waste of time or whatever, go ahead...that's you're right, doesn't bother me. I don't believe in Global Warming or that Arizona will become beachfront property and I hope that doesn't bother you.

It's only my opinion, but I don't buy into the notion of mechanically speeding up the maturing of a mandolin or improving a less than desirable mandolin by somehow vibrating it or whatever the de-dampening thingy does.

jimbob, It's not about speeding up the 'maturing process' or improving a less less than desirable mandolin. My main mandolin is 27 years old now and has always had excellent tone and volume. But when I play it a lot, the tone and volume are at their optimum and this, I believe, is what is accomplished with de-damping.

OK...enjoy your de-dampener thingy. I hope it works great. I sure wouldn't be buying a mandolin that I thought need some type of enhancement before it even arrived, but to each his own.

jimbob, I doubt that many of us buy a Tonerite with a new mandolin in mind. I may be wrong but at least that's not why I use it. It doesn't really matter anyway...to each his own.

[rgray]

For centuries it seems that everyone has accepted the idea that acoustic stringed instruments sound better the more played. This despite no scientific tests - just the listener's ear. Is it the repetitious string plucking or the spirital act of music production? Who knew and who cared? Now we have someone who has applied a theory to the development of technology intended to simulate extensive playing time. Is this idea scientifically sound and can it be verified using technology? Who knows and who cares? The original idea that repeated playing improved an instrument's sound needed no scientific validation - just the listener's ear. Why is this no longer good enough?

[papawhisky]

OK--some results. I bought a Tonerite because I have 2 mandos, an OM, 2 guitars. None of them get played enough. Also one of my mandolins is a fairly new Mowry and I wanted to see if the Tonerite would accelerate the playing in. I want to be very clear that I am extremely pleased with the sound of the Mowry, as well as the other instruments (2 Collings, Flatiron, and a budget Martin). But I will also tell you that the Mowry sound isn't mature yet. It's fairly new. I don't want anyone thinking that I did this because I am trying to correct a sound that I am not satisfied with. It is about de-damping, not correcting. And, I owned all the instruments I now own before I ever heard of a Tonerite. The basic premise of the Tonerite made sense to me, and it seems to have worked out well in the violin community, so I thought I'd give it a try.
So, I got the Tonerite on Friday and put it on the Mowry. The instructions insist on a 24-hour bare minimum but recommend a 72-hour initial application. I decided I needed to go with the recommendation if I really wanted to give it a chance to work. I hooked it up (easy, intuitive) and let it run full blast (has a slide rheostat for Low--High) for 72 hours. I got home from work yesterday and started playing. Here is what I noticed.

There was no radical result. There is difference, but it is incremental. First thing I noticed is that there is slightly more volume, just a little more. Next I noticed that the E strings had a more mature sound. Before they were brighter, now they are getting a little more depth. I liked that.

The other thing I noticed is that when I played around the 10-12 frets, there was more volume and clarity. When I chopped in the 10-12 frets, the punch was noticeably stronger.

Those are the 3 things I noticed. I suspect that further de-damping will manifest itself in more small changes to the response of the mandolin. I am encouraged and will continue to use the Tonerite.

For kicks I put in on my MT2 yesterday, although it is several years old and has a mature sound. I'll see what it sounds like tonight. I wouldn't expect it to do anything to the sound or response except keep it "warmed up".

I think the mandolin model will fit on my OM and probably a guitar. I'll try that soon and let you know.

I know there is a lot of "discussion" about the Tonerite. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with the concept, or thinking that I am impatient, gullible or not playing enough. But I would hate for anyone to think that I am using one because the instruments are not up to par. I love the Mowry so much, I don't think I'll ever part with it. The Collings, Flatiron, Martin are all great instruments. Nuff said.

[jimbob]

Stick a fork in me....all done...enjoy.

[foldedpath]

For centuries it seems that everyone has accepted the idea that acoustic stringed instruments sound better the more played. This despite no scientific tests - just the listener's ear.

For years, audiophiles believed that spending outrageous amounts of money on fancy speaker cables would result in much better quality sound reproduction. It was just the "listener's ear"... pure anecdotal evidence, and that was good enough. High-end cable vendors made a lot of money on that perception.

Then someone came along recently and demonstrated, in a controlled test, that there is no difference between a thousand dollar cable and a length of coat hanger wire. Some of us (the skeptics in the crowd), were not all that surprised.

Is it the repetitious string plucking or the spirital act of music production? Who knew and who cared? Now we have someone who has applied a theory to the development of technology intended to simulate extensive playing time. Is this idea scientifically sound and can it be verified using technology? Who knows and who cares? The original idea that repeated playing improved an instrument's sound needed no scientific validation - just the listener's ear. Why is this no longer good enough?

Because we're human, and humans are fallible, emotional, and subject to confirmation bias.

We all want to believe our mandolins are getting better over time with constant playing. But without an objective test, there's no way to tell whether it's the mandolin getting better, or you getting better as a player, and learning how best to play that particular instrument. Throw in changes in string brands and picks as your tastes evolve, and the opportunity to hear and compare other instruments over time besides your own, and it gets even murkier. How well do you know that you're remembering, with perfect accuracy, what your mandolin sounded like when it was brand new? And were you the same player then (in terms of taste and experience) that you are now?

If just a few people would do the following demonstrations, we could stop arguing:

1. Set up a test rig where the instrument is strummed with a mechanical gadget, to eliminate player variables.
   
2. Record a new mandolin at a fixed mic distance (or an older one that needs "improving").
   
3. Use whatever de-damping or vibration method you like.
   
4. Make another recording with all settings exactly the same.
   
5. Take both recordings, put them online, but don't identify which is which.

If there is a volume change, and if all the variables in the test have been carefully controlled, then that will be immediately obvious.

Then we test for tone improvement. If there was a volume enhancement, we zero out that difference to remove the well-known human bias in favor of volume, when comparing audio files. Now put the files online again, and don't identify which is which.

Can people hear a difference with those unmarked files? More importantly, what's the statistical breakdown? People might still hear a difference, but disagree on which file sounds "better."

Ideally we'd have several people contributing tests on different mandolins, so we could start to get a statistically meaningful (and repeatable) tests. Some instruments may respond to this better than others (or not at all). It would also be interesting to compare a test like this, with one where a mandolin is just played normally, off and on, for the same length of time. That could demonstrate that the method is useful for folks who don't play often, but maybe not worthwhile for those who play their instruments daily (that is, if the process works at all).

So that's the basic skeptic position on this. Show me that it works. And if it does something useful, show me that it's noticeably better than just playing the mandolin almost daily, like I'm doing now. Otherwise, why would I want to buy a gadget like this? What's the incentive? I'm a total gear-head (can 'ya tell from my posts here?!), but only when I know I'm getting something actually useful, and not snake oil.

[f5loar]

It works.

[Mike Snyder]

The testimonials, both here and on the Tonerite website, have won me over. I'd love to have my mandolin always "warmed up". She gets sleepy if not played regularly. It's going on the Christmas list along with a new case and a McClurg armrest. I understand the scepticism on this, it's not going to appeal to everyone, obviously. I do not pick professionally, nor do I pick for hours each day. Also the latent goober in me has caused me to take up the tenor banjo. So, thats time off for the mando. I like the way mine sounds after three days of festival campgroung picking. If the vibrotonic dodad delivers, then I'm in. Check the website, that's what pushed me off the fence.
That, and f5loar usually knows whereof he speaks.

[R. Kane]

Msnyder,
Why not strap on a $15 aquarium vibrator pump? I have a tonerite working its way through my instruments, and I'm sold on them, but now I'm wondering if there isn't a way to do this without waiting for the Christmas present list.
RK

[Mike Snyder]

I am a tinkerer at heart, but I'm not sure how well I'd sleep with a fish pump jury rigged onto my mandolin. There is no hurry, I guess, and something might occur to me, or pop up here at the cafe.
If you come up with something specific that will save me $$, I'll be yer buddy forever. I still think a rental agreement sounds right. Gets you back some bucks. But that's not the way it works, to my understanding. Sounds like a long-term committment. Your mando will have the Tonerite monkey on it's back til doomsday. No time to mail it to poor ol' Mikey.

[Amandalyn]

With my personal involvement in the development the Mandolin model Tonerite, I suspect you will find my comments biased. First let me say that I am primarily a musician, and yes I have a Music Business. But, I am also a skeptic and would not recommend or endorse something I didn't completely believe in. Some have suggested a test like "Folded Path" recommened, and at one time I was going to do that myself, but not having the proper sound equipment to make a controlled test, opted out. The proof is in the positive response I have gotten from clients,and also the scientific tests that the company has made. For me the most useful quality of the Tonerite, is when I pick up my mandolin to play it is open and responsive, giving me more confidence and enjoyable playability. Most will attest an instrument that sounds better makes you play better.

[Amandalyn]

and Someone out there that bought and used one of those machines should go into the rental business and I'd be their first customer.

An idea along these lines is an option if someone wants to head this up and work out the details on a "group buy" type situation, where you pass it on to the next guy after trying it- this could take awhile to pass around. I know this has been done with picks before. You'de have to have a limited number of users in the pool, even a couple pools going on. I realize the cost on one unit is high right now, hopefully this will go down after August, when full production goes into effect.
I have some ideas if someone wants to contact me off list about about working out a group trial, we can see what we can do.
Teri

[mandozilla]

For me the most useful quality of the Tonerite, is when I pick up my mandolin to play it is open and responsive, giving me more confidence and enjoyable playability. Most will attest an instrument that sounds better makes you play better.

I'll drink to that! If it never worked on another mando (which it has BTW) except my mainmando I'd still be happy as a clam.

It's awesome picking up my mando and getting the volume and tone I'd expect after 2 or 3 days of pickin' it 8 hours a day.

[Paul Statman]

I pulled the trigger and got one after Teri told me they'd knocked $100 off the price last week. It's been on my MF5 (Collings) for a week now (except when I take it down to play it). I wasn't too sure at first (after the initial 72 hrs), so I played it to some folks who've heard it before, but didn't tell them anything. They all said (unprompted) that it seemed louder, and fatter-sounding. I let my fiddle player try it yesterday, and he immediately asked me what I'd 'done' to it. He noted that the mando is more responsive, pointing out also that the trebles are now 'fuller', even way up the neck.
I've noticed that the 'G' course is much improved (it always had a killer 'D').
It will reside mostly on the PML when it's finished, but until then, it's earning its keep on the MF5, and on my snakehead while I play the Collings!

[Amandalyn]

Here's what Alan Bibey had to say: "the tonerite supercharged my instruments to their max in volume and tone! One of the most useful new products I've seen in a really long time!"
--Alan Bibey - Member of Grasstowne - Two Time SPBGMA Mandolin Player of the Year

[foldedpath]

Alan Bibey is onboard for the mandolin Tonerite: "the tonerite supercharged my instruments to their max in volume and tone! One of the most useful new products I've seen in a really long time!"
--Alan Bibey - Member of Grasstowne - Two Time SPBGMA Mandolin Player of the Year

At what point do posts like this, from a dealer, cross over into outright advertising on the forum? Just asking...

[Amandalyn]

Just stating a fact. Everyone's always asking for a user's statement, endorsement- so there it is.
The thread does say- "Results, anyone?"

[Paul Statman]

Thanks, Teri~

'twas I who posed the question, and I'm glad to hear from Alan - even though I got mine last week!

[jim_n_virginia]

I've had mine for over a month and I'm thoroughly sold on it.

There are skeptics out there but unless they've actually tried it to me they're just blowing hot air and gas (no offense intended) and I doubt if (m)any have tried one.

I tried one and I don't think they work. I think the people that DO hear a difference WANT to hear a difference SO bad that it DOES sound different ... to them.

Beside who needs attachments to make their mandolin sound better? Just get a good sounding mandolin in the first place!!!



PS now hand me my Armrest and ToneGard I have gig tonight!

[mandozilla]

Jim
I didn't buy a Tonerite to try and make a poor sounding mandolin sound good. I have always been very happy with the excellent tone and volume of my mandolin.

But I've also noticed a marked improvement after playing for 3 or 4 hours straight at a festival...it's only then that I start really cooking on the blasted thing. By the end of the festival I can't get enough of my mandolin.

When I read posts on the message board by respected luthiers that mandolins can 'go to sleep' if not played a lot and that de-damping is a reality that's been used in the violin community for quite a while, I thought why not try it. Comments from these guys jived with my personal experiences.

I wouldn't say that de-damping has 'improved' my mandolins' tone or volume but rather keeps it in a 'been played for 4 hours' state.