Tru-Oil, Behlen's Rock Hard, or something else?

[derekbyron]

I am finishing two solid body, quarter sawn pine Telecasters and need to decide what type of finish to use. I use mandolion and violin finishing as the benchmark for tone sensitive finishes, so I figured I would pose the question here.

I do not have a spray setup and specifically avoided having them shot with nitro or poly. Ideally I would do a French polish, but I really don't have the time and definitely don't have the experience.

What's a good alternative that will protect the wood from moisture and basic wear and tear, but still be as minimal and tone sensitive as possible?

[billhay4]

I've used Tru Oil on a few instruments. Very easy to apply, but you need many coats to get a good finish. Use their sealer or shellac to seal, too.
You don't get the deep, glowing finish you get with other stuff. At least, I haven't, but some do on gunstocks. Maybe a pore filler would help. The finish is not bad, though, and will buff up. It has to dry thoroughly after the final coat and before you buff, so the entire process can take a couple of weeks or more.
Bill

[Michael Lewis]

Is this trolling or are you so mislead as to think finish will effect a solid body?

[Chris Keth]

Is this trolling or are you so mislead as to think finish will effect a solid body?

I also play electric guitar and a lot of players actually think that the finish on a solidbody electric guitar affects its tone. I would say, based on recent forum threads, that it's a solid 35-40%. There are people who have stripped and refinished instruments and made claims that they can hear a difference.

Then again, Eric Johnson claims he can tell the difference between brands of 9V batteries in his effects pedals by the slightly different sound they produce.

[derekbyron]

Is this trolling or are you so mislead as to think finish will effect a solid body?

To claim that a thick shell of nitro or poly won't dampen the resonance of a piece of wood seems rather narrow and ignorant...especially coming from a luthier who is supposed to be sensitive to these things. By your broken logic, what's the point in choosing tonewoods for a solid body guitar...a maple neck or a mahogany neck? an ash body or pine body? an ebony fretboard or a rosewood fretboard? These all effect feel and resonance...just as the final finish does.

Isn't it trolling to intentionally try and derail a thread by making a condescending, albeit incorrect, comment and then follow it with a cute smilie?

[derekbyron]

I also play electric guitar and a lot of players actually think that the finish on a solidbody electric guitar affects its tone. I would say, based on recent forum threads, that it's a solid 35-40%. There are people who have stripped and refinished instruments and made claims that they can hear a difference.

Then again, Eric Johnson claims he can tell the difference between brands of 9V batteries in his effects pedals by the slightly different sound they produce.

The effect of a 9v battery is real when you're talking about the circuitry of fuzz and wah pedals. It's not necessarily the brand, but rather the type, ie carbon zinc, alkaline or NiCd. The cheapie, Walgreen's brand carbon-zinc are usually the best because their output is weaker. Most of the better pedal power supplies will provide at least one terminal that has a variable dial that allows you to choke the output to emulate a dying 9v battery. Something about a fuzz pedal prefers to see this type of power, rather than a strong current of an Energizer.

Delays and modulation pedals are the exact opposite, they'll work for about an hour with a Walgreens battery, and sound horrible for that hour.

[derekbyron]

Does anybody actually have something on topic and useful to contribute, or have I overestimated the Cafe? It's been a few years since I've hung out around here, but it seems like things have changed a little bit...

[thistle3585]

Having built 30+ solid body electric mandolins, I believe I can confidently say that the finish isn't going to affect tone especially if you are using a magnetic pickup. When talking about the effects of finish on the instrument you are basically talking about the added weight, and on an electric added weight is going to affect sustain more than tone. If there was an effect, i think its so minute that it is immeasurable. Besides, how can you be concerned that the finish will rob it of resonance when you attach a .060 plastic pickguard to it?

All that aside, I currently have a customer who is insisting on a varnish finish on his electric, and since he's writing the check that's what he gets.

[pops1]

Having built 30+ solid body electric mandolins, I believe I can confidently say that the finish isn't going to affect tone especially if you are using a magnetic pickup. When talking about the effects of finish on the instrument you are basically talking about the added weight, and on an electric added weight is going to affect sustain more than tone. If there was an effect, i think its so minute that it is immeasurable. Besides, how can you be concerned that the finish will rob it of resonance when you attach a .060 plastic pickguard to it?

All that aside, I currently have a customer who is insisting on a varnish finish on his electric, and since he's writing the check that's what he gets.

Finish definitely affects tone even on a solid body with a magnetic pickup. I have found that guitars with solid colors are brighter sounding than guitars where you can see the wood grain. this has been a very consistent observation from several company's. It may be subtle, but you can hear it and not only i have noticed it, but so have several of the players that i work with. There is a difference between a glued on neck and a bolt on neck in sound that is a subtle difference as finish, but it is there and some prefer a les paul or a fender for that reason.

Have you thought of Bhelens violin finish, it can be brushed on, and then wet sanded and buffed and still kept quite thin.

[thistle3585]

I don't think you are comparing apples to apples when comparing an instrument coated with an opaque color versus a transparent stain. Usually, instruments with opaque colors are made from a lower grade of material if not a completely different species all together, so yes I would agree that there is a tone difference between species but I don't think you will see a measurable difference before and after its finished regardless of the type of finish.

By the way, I will most likely use Tru-oil on my electric as I have used it on an acoustic with great success. It has held up well but it took a lot of coats. You might also consider a spar varnish.

[Jim Hilburn]

All the best sounding electric guitars ever made are finished with nitro lacquer. The $300k Les Pauls, the $50k Stratocasters, the original Broadcasters, 99.9 % of all electric guitars from when they were invented till the 70's All of the greatest guitar solos you've ever heard, the ones that defined what electric guitar tone is were played on guitars finished in lacquer.
Derek, you say you want to do a finish that's easy because you aren't prepared or knowledgable enough to do anything else and that's fair enough. But you have some misconceptions about instrument finish. You assume a lacquer finish would have a damping effect on a solid body and I would dispute that. Varnish finishes from the violin world have a damping effect and they are meant to.
That $300k Les Paul has about as thick of a lacquer job on it thats ever been applied and yet it's one of the most resonant instruments ever made. An experienced finisher can put a microscopic thin lacquer finish on that will offer the most protection with virtually no inpact of the resonance of the instrument.

[derekbyron]

An experienced finisher can put a microscopic thin lacquer finish on that will offer the most protection with virtually no inpact of the resonance of the instrument.

So finish does affect resonance? If I could spray that thin layer of nitro, I would...I own a couple really nice old Gibson's with lacquer finishes, that, to me, sound perfect. Unfortunately, I can not spray nitro...so I am looking for a good alternative that will go on as thin as possible and still offer some protection. I'm not arguing that finish is nearly as critical to tone as how a pickup is wound, or scale length, or set neck v. bolt on...but to say it has no effect at all seems entirely incorrect.

The 300k Les Paul is apples to oranges with guitars being built today in terms of materials and finishes. Wood and finish that has aged for the past 50 years will sound entirely different than the current wet logs coming off the production line at Gibson.

[pchristi]

Derek, I used Deft lacquer that comes in a rattle can for my mandolin and found that it was very easy to apply. When I ran out – I found it at several hardware stores…so it was easy to find. Sprayed the lacquer on in several thin coats - dries relatively quickly. Easy to spot fill divots, leveled and polished easily. Proper ventilation may be the only extra precaution over something like Tru-Oil. One distinct advantage I had in spraying Deft was that I did not want to smear the hand rubbed dyes. I would think you could apply as thin a coat as you thought protective and still get a nice glossy finish. Good luck with your project.

[Jim Rowland]

As Lynn Dude says,"it's not how many coats you put on,it's how many you leave on." Ten coats by brush or spray properly leveled down will equal ?...five or fewer? You have some control there.
Jim

[D.E.Williams]

Derek, I nearly replied with the same basic question as Michael, because he's right when he says that the finish makes little difference on an electric guitar, since really most of the tone is in the pickups. The woods do effect the tone as far as damping and sustain etc, but the finish would have to be applied ridiculously thick for it to effect the tone negatively.

That said, if you need someone to spray it for you, try going to Pawtucket where Campbell American Guitars is and talk to Charlie Lavallee about spraying it. For a modest sum, (if they have time, and if Mr. Campbell is ok with it) they will spray a nice lacquer finish on it in their brand-new spray booth using McFadden's lacquer.
Another possibility is Noll Guitars, in Cranston. They do a ton of repair work on electrics, and may have spray facilities.

If those folks can't or won't do it, contact me and I may be able to suggest an alternative.

[j. condino]

Derek:

I've seen some great result from students and other builders who used Stew Mac's rattle cans of Nitro. How you detail out the last coat is everything with nitro. If you checkout my video at finewoodworking.com on handrubbing a sunburst finish and then French polishing over it, my basic premise is that the two most important layers to your finish are the first and last.

I almost always use shellac as a first layer for both it's sealer qualities and for the depth that it gives to the wood. How you buff or rub out the last coat gives the primary visual effect, matte, semi gloss, or rock star mirror shine. For me, everything in the middle is just building up a thick enough layer to protect and buff out.

My main issue with True oil has been the subtle fog lines between layers that are visible under close inspection after sanding / rub out. Other than that, it is affordable, easy to use, and very durable. Search the talkbass.com websites for several lengthy discussions about true oil. They cover it regularly over there.

I've used almost every finish out there, and a lot of it comes down to just nitpicking over the details. Your best bet is to just pick one, do several practice runs until you get it right, and then stick with it over several instruments until you are confident with it. Probably the worst thing you can do for your own development is build five different instruments and try five different finishing methods on each one, none working out very successful. Ten folks here will likely tell you ten different answers on finishing. Most of them find something that works for them and then stick with it. I can hand rub a nice sunburst and french polish the entire instrument and have it ready to go out the door with less than six hours total time invested. Whenever I get out the nitro and spray guns, I usually spend about 6 hours just cleaning up the guns from the mess I made and then another 15 hours for the spraying and rub out; I'm not as efficient at it as I am the other methods....

I wish that my ears were sensitive enough to be able to tell different brands of 9v batteries at a gig. Most of the time my main concern is getting that damned banjo player to move to the other side of the stage and hoping that the ocaisional drummer gets too drunk to come back for the second set....

j.
www.condino.com

[Rick Turner]

As someone with probably a heck of a lot more experience than anyone else here with making solid body guitars and basses over nearly forty years, I have to say I'm reading some utter bull pucky here.

1) Properly done, thin synthetic finishes like polyester do not inhibit the vibration in a solid body guitar.

2) The sound of an electric guitar or bass is NOT in the pickups, it's in the wood. Pickups are merely a window into the tone of the instrument. The pickup/window affects what you hear because it's a filter, but it does not affect in a fundamental way how the strings react to the neck and body UNLESS it's something like a Strat with the pickups too close to the strings.

I'm hands-on with somewhere around 2,000 solid body instruments fitted with magnetic pickups now, and then another 1,800 or so semi-hollow acoustic electrics made with piezos. I've used everything from Watco to nitro to catalyzed polyurethane to polyester to French polish. Thin finishes rule, just like with acoustic instruments. Good players evaluate a solid body instrument unplugged as well as plugged in, and they know that if it responds well unplugged, it's likely to sound good if the pickups are any good...and if they're not, you can change them. You can't change the core response of the instrument easily, and that's where the tone is.

[Michael Lewis]

Well, Derekbyron, I apologize if your feelings were hurt, that was certainly not my intent. I was honestly asking if your question was serious, the smilie is titled "confused", and comes with a question mark, for obvious reason.

How thick is your finish going to be? For a very thin finish you can use polyurethane, just wipe it on and wipe it off. C. F. Martin uses this for some of their lower end models. Applied this way for a couple coats it is thin and seals well. For a thicker finish the Behlen's Rock Hard is good. Neither of these finishes require any special equipment, but the Behlen's will require some skill if you want it nice.

[man dough nollij]

I've never built an instrument, but I have a little bit of an engineering background, and I'm curious...

This TruOil and stuff-- is it resin in soliution in an oil? I have no experience with this, and I'm curious how wiping down with an oil finish will deliver a finish.

Is there some shellac-like polymer that's disolved in an oil, and gets deposited by multiple applications of finishing oil?

I've seen a little bit of discussion of the chemical/mechanical differences betwee oil varnish/ spirit varnish, etc., but I've never seen the use of these oil finishes integrated into that.

As a fan of matte or satin finishes, it sounds like a straight oil varnish or Tru-oil type finish might be cool.

Come August, I'll have to opportunity to order a kit!

Lee

(I build stuff and play stuff in my head...)

[Rob Grant]

Derek wrote:
"I do not have a spray setup and specifically avoided having them shot with nitro or poly. Ideally I would do a French polish, but I really don't have the time and definitely don't have the experience."

Given the above limitations I'd just run down to the local hardware store and buy a fresh pressure pack (spray can) of what we call here in Oz call "Estapol." Estapol is a relatively fast drying (not the water base version) polyurathane. Lay it on and let it dry for 24 hours. Bob's your uncle. Works a treat if you're in a hurry. The Yanks must have an equivalent.

[D.E.Williams]

ok, I stand corrected. If Rick says most of the tone is in the wood, then it's in the wood. My point was that unlike an acoustic, the instrument relies on the pickups for amplification, not so much the vibrations of the top and the chamber as with an acoustic guitar. A thin finish is understood, but with an electric, it's just not *as* critical - an ultra-thin finish just isn't going to matter as much. I don't think going with a french polish is going to give you any noticeable advantage over lacquer or a poly finish.

[pops1]

The thicker the finish the more mass, the more mass the brighter the sound. Electric or acoustic. If an electric guitar doesn't sound good acoustic it won't sound good no matter what pickups you use. If you want a brighter sounding electric guitar make the finish thicker or use some more glue and laminate something to it mass is brighter.

[Rick Turner]

It's a lot more complex than that.

I've built hundreds and hundreds...yes, up into the thousands of electric and "amplicoustic" instruments. I've built neck through styles, bolt on necks, set (glued in) necks, and I've used dozens and dozens of wood combinations. I've made them all out of the same wood; I've made them laminated. I basically designed what is now lovingly/derisively called the "hippie sandwich". It all matters. Every damned thing you do matters. Lams vs. no lams. Fingerboard woods. Tops. Centerblocks. Necks through vs separates... It all matters.

If it was all in the pickups, then a Les Paul would sound exactly like a 335, and they would sound exactly like a D-28 with a humbucker mounted on it. It's not all in the pickups. It's mostly in the wood with the pickups adding or subtracting one ear spice flavor or another or a blend.

One of the best solid bodies I ever made (and should have kept) was one of my Model 1 "Featherweights" with a western red cedar body core with top and back made with a 25" radius cylindrical arch with .90" Brazilian rosewood top and back laminated to the arch. In engineering terms it was like a stressed skin panel, and the arch made it very stiff longitudinally...it was like a single corrugation on the top and back. The neck was Spanish cedar (cedro) loaded with carbon fiber...two 1/8" x 1/2" bars with an ebony fingerboard. That was a magic combo of woods and design qualities that made for a very light weight instrument that was extremely resonant in just the right range.

Mass in and of itself does not make an electric brighter. Thinking that it's all about mass is just wrong. Think of metals...you want mass? Get some lead. But it sucks vibration absolutely dead! Mass is just one quality of any material and it's independent of Q or resonant quality. You want a resonant metal? Think of hard aluminum...nice and light and it rings like a bell. They use it in vibraphones for that. Woods are like that, too. Ebony is dense, but it's not generally as resonant as many other lighter woods. Honduras rosewood is both dense and resonant. Spruce is light and resonant. Balsa is light and has fairly high damping.

OK, thread highjack here, but finishes...thin is good...usually.

[kestrel]

Lee - This is seven coats of Tru Oil. First two wiped on and allowed to dry overnight, buffed lightly with 0000 steel wool, then five coats wiped on and immediately wiped off. You're not really wiping all the oil off, and are getting very thin coats. Unlike what some say, this doesn't take a "long" time to do. This was done two coats a day, in 43% RH, at around 68-degrees. Less than a week.

I'm not positive, but have been told by those who claim to know, that Tru Oil contains varnish. It isn't just an oil like Watco Danish.

Gene

[woodwiz]

Tru oil contains mineral spirits @56%, linseed oil 11%, and "modified oil" @33%. I presume the modfied oil is polymerized linseed oil, cooked to start it thickening. No mention of resins or dryers. Good finish for gunstocks.