How & where to sell 1927 F5

[1927-F5]

I'm trying to determine the best way to sell my deceased father's 1927 Gibson F5 mandolin.

One player tells me to go to Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto, another that I should try a major auction house like Sotheby's, and another recommends Mandolin Brothers or Elderly.

I don't know any of these places, nor do I know what is the usual commission and other charges. Also, I am not at all enthusiastic about shipping the instrument.

I looked at www.mandolinarchive.com and the closest serial number I could find is 84685, which is listed as May 1927 -- that's the only way I "know" it was made in 1927 -- I don't have the original bill of sale.

The instrument is entirely original (except for the strings), the frets show wear but are not excessively worn, the finish shows some crackling, and is worn at the highest point on the front of the scroll, there is a ding near the bass f-hole, the ebony bridge is splitting near the treble height adjustment screw, and the gold plating on the tailpiece cover is worn off the bass and bottom edges. Oh yes, the pickguard shows some scuffing, but from cloth sleeves, not picks.

So my questions boil down to:

1. Is it better to use a well-known auction house, a well-known dealer, or is some other approach better?

2. Who is reputable?

3. What are the customary and usual fees, commissions, and other expenses?

4. What method of shipping is the best?

5. What other things should I know before contracting with an auction house, dealer, or whatever?

6. This is not a forced sale, but we would like to sell it in the next several months. What is a reasonable price range in the current market?

Thank you for your help!

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm trying to determine the best way to sell my deceased father's 1927 Gibson F5 mandolin....

Mandolin Brothers in New York
Elderly in Michicgan
Gruhn's in Nashville
Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto

The list above are all links. Stan Jay at Mandolin Brothers, Stan Werbin at Elderly, George Gruhn at Gruhn's and Frank Ford at Gryphon are all known to be decent people.

Discuss the concerns you have with a few of the folks listed above. They will have a better idea as to what the current market is. Find the one you're comfortable with and go for it.

[Brad Weiss]

Out of my league here but: Any of the proposed places will do right by you, though I'd have a preference for an instrument dealer over an auction house. Were I lucky enough to have such an instrument I would (well, I'd keep it...) want to deal with the location closest to where I lived, if possible, so I could discuss stuff in person. Alternatively, call and get to know the folks you'd deal with as well as possible. Be sure to add Gruhn's in Nashville to the list- between Gruhn's, Elderly, Mando Bros. and Gryphon you'll have some fine, reputable choices. Good luck!

(Mike beat me to the links while I was composing my post!)

[mrmando]

You won't have to ship this instrument. Anyone who can afford it can also afford a plane ticket to come and get it. Mandolins are small enough to fly with as carry-on baggage.

I think Gruhn's or Mandolin Bros. will, for a modest fee, do an appraisal based on good photographs. Their appraisals tend to run on the upper end of the value spectrum, i.e., if a given instrument is known to sell in the range of $A to $B, these dealers' appraisals tend to be closer to $B.

The condition doesn't sound like a problem except for the bridge. However, you don't need to have the bridge replaced; the buyer will have someone in mind to fit a new bridge.

Here's what I might do if I had to sell an expensive vintage mandolin: I'd ask a dealer to tell me, hypothetically, his selling price (X) and commission (Y) for said mandolin. Then I'd try a private sale at the selling price minus half the commission, or X-0.5Y.

There's another '20s Gibson F5 for sale privately in the Midwest. It's being kept in a bank vault for security, which strikes me as a very good idea if you're going to go the private-sale route. Once you have good photographs and an appraisal, you can give it a spin in the Classifieds right here on Mandolin Cafe.

I haven't seen a '27 F5 for sale recently and am not sure what it might fetch these days. I'm thinking $80K-100K but I might be a bit off. Two of the foremost Gibson F5 experts, Darryl Wolfe and Tom Isenhour, are members here and will probably weigh in.

[barney 59]

Show us a picture!
I think Eric Schoenberg , Tiburon California is really knowledgeable and has a great reputation. Besides he's in Tiburon and people can afford it there.

[mrmando]

Or Dexter Johnson at Carmel Music!

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd still stay with one of the nationally known guys. The market for high end mandolins isn't huge.

[AlanN]

Absolutely Dexter.

[mrmando]

Schoenberg is mostly a guitar dealer and doesn't seem to handle that many mandolins. Apart from Dexter, here are the other one-man dealerships that have the expertise to sell this mandolin:

Lowell Levinger, Players Vintage Instruments (Bay Area)
Charles Johnson, Mandolin World Headquarters (VA)
Tony Williamson, Mandolin Central (NC)
Larry Wexer, Wexer Guitars (NYC)

Did I miss anyone?

[1927-F5]

...There's another '20s Gibson F5 for sale privately in the Midwest. It's being kept in a bank vault for security, which strikes me as a very good idea ...

Yes, I don't want my place ransacked by someone who believes I would keep it here -- that's why I'm trying to remain anonymous. Also, I don't want the services of people who want to help me spend the money once it's sold. Maybe if they realize I drive an old car and even after the sale I will continue to drive that old car, they won't be so interested!

[1927-F5]

... Here's what I might do if I had to sell an expensive vintage mandolin: I'd ask a dealer to tell me, hypothetically, his selling price (X) and commission (Y) for said mandolin. Then I'd try a private sale at the selling price minus half the commission, or X-0.5Y....

This idea occurred to me too, but it raises some other problems. The last time I dealt with a transaction of this magnitude it was for real property and we used an escrow agent who made sure the title and money was real before completing the transaction. I haven't heard of any kind of escrow service being available for this, though.

Here are some of the potential problems:
*How and where should the potential buyer view and play the instrument?
*How do I know the buyer is capable of making the purchase when we haven't even agreed on a price yet?
*How to transfer the money in a form that can't be repudiated (rubber check, and yes, even cashier's checks can bounce).
*How is the buyer assured that once he hands over the money he gets the instrument with clear title? The buyer needs protection too!

[MikeEdgerton]

You're dealing with an instrument that is going to bring you some real money. There are plenty of people in this world that are going to be more than willing to do you out of it. Absent any knowledge of how to make this transaction go forward and keep from getting burned, place it with one of the people listed here that you have a level of trust in. You'll get that by speaking to them.

[1927-F5]

There's another '20s Gibson F5 for sale privately in the Midwest. It's being kept in a bank vault for security, which strikes me as a very good idea if you're going to go the private-sale route.

Sorry, I was being dense -- The bank is a relatively safe, neutral place for both buyer and seller -- what a great idea! So if the viewing and playing of the mandolin occurs at the bank it is stored at, and the transaction occurs at the same bank via wire transfer or in some other non-repudiable form, then everything works out fine. I'll chat up my bank today to see if that will work if I choose to do a private sale.

Thanks MrMando!

[allenhopkins]

Did I miss anyone?

Possibly John Bernunzio in Rochester.

[mrmando]

Right, wire transfer right there at the bank should be a safe transaction. If you're worried about establishing clear title, I imagine your lawyer can help.

But if you don't get any bites with a private sale, hop a plane and take it to the nearest of the big 4 shops. If the original case is fragile, get a good traveling case, like a Calton, Pegasus, or Gary Price. The case and the plane ticket are well worth it, considering what the instrument could potentially sell for.

Possibly John Bernunzio in Rochester.

Yes, my apologies to John. Is that accurately described as a one-man dealership, or is it more of a family business?

P.S. The Classifieds here don't allow anonymous ads. So if it's important to keep your name out of it, you either need a trusted local proxy to help with the sale, or you need to pursue the consignment option.

[man dough nollij]

Elderly has a '24 Loar for sale, that I believe is physically at the Denver Folklore Center. I don't know why it's listed both places, but that's a good example of how a high-end mandolin is being marketed. Both institutions are well respected for their knowledge of vintage instruments.

[allenhopkins]

Yes, my apologies to John [Bernunzio]. Is that accurately described as a one-man dealership, or is it more of a family business?

John and his wife, mainly.

The Denver Folklore/Elderly partnership is based, I believe, on the fact that the Loar was brought to Harry Tuft in Denver, and he enlisted Elderly because Elderly has a world-wide on-line/mail business, and the Folklore Center doesn't. For six-figure instruments, getting the world out widely is really important. One reason why the advice to work with a nationally-known dealer is good.

[Roger Renfro]

You may want to contact Dave Wendler, who is conducting the sale of the Loar in the Kansas City area. He's the one who worked with a local bank to handle the instrument throughout the transaction. I'd send him a private message here on the Cafe & pick his brain for things you might otherwise overlook.

Here's one of the threads on the KC Loar

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...hlight=wendler

[Rob Powell]

I'll give a dollar for it and take all the pressure off

[Chuck Naill]

1927 F-5,

There are very knowledgeable people here like Darrell Wolfe, http://www.f5journal.com/, who has a web site devoted to Gibson mandolins. If I were you, I would contact him because I am thinking he knows potential buyers who may be collectors or musicians. Perhaps for a fee comparable to the consignment fee, you could ask someone to act as a mediator/arbiter.

It would be nice to have some pictures, but I would take care not to give out to much about yourself or your location.

I hope it works out for you well.

[Timbofood]

Dog gone it Rob!, beat me to it!
But seriously, your concern about safety and anonimity are both quite valid. one thing that joins vintage instyruments and jewelry is the need for security! A bank is without doubt one of the safest places for such transactions but Hotel lobbies can also be reasonable locations as well. There are always people within sight if given a heads up they can also be "on the lookout." Far safer would be the "reputable dealer" route. The best have been mentioned, I like Elderly since it is relatively close but, they are all "worth their hire" for the job. Good luck, OR you COULD just learn to play it!

[Links]

You may want to contact Dave Wendler, who is conducting the sale of the Loar in the Kansas City area. He's the one who worked with a local bank to handle the instrument throughout the transaction. I'd send him a private message here on the Cafe & pick his brain for things you might otherwise overlook.

Here's one of the threads on the KC Loar

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...hlight=wendler

Good idea - in my opinion, Dave did everything right!

You have gotten a lot of good advice here on what to do. I can give you some good advice on what not to do! Once you decide what to do, stick with it. The absolutely worst thing you can do is to "shop" the mandolin around trying to squeeze the last dollar out of it. Both you and the buyer should feel like you got a fair deal. Once you establish a fair price, sell it for that.

For your information, large auction houses, IMHO, tend to "soak" the seller with everything from insurance fees, advertising fees, shipping fees, etc. in addition to a healthy sellers fee. Now, all of the well known auction houses have a stiff buyers fee as well. I think you would do much better with a private sell or through one of the dealers listed above.

Good luck!

[1927-F5]

... OR you COULD just learn to play it!

Yeah, my father tried to interest me in it, but I was only 9 at the time and those E-strings really cut up my small soft fingers.

If a person has talent it still takes them about 2000 hours to master something -- a number which is about equal to 10 years fulltime. It's not clear I have any talent for this, and even if I did I just don't have that much time anymore....

[EdSherry]

I've been dealing with Frank Ford at Gryphon for 38 years, since I stumbled into his shop my freshman year in college. What he doesn't know about the instrument isn't worth knowing. Honest to a fault. Strongly recommended. -- Ed

[1927-F5]

I've been dealing with Frank Ford at Gryphon for 38 years, since I stumbled into his shop my freshman year in college. What he doesn't know about the instrument isn't worth knowing. Honest to a fault. Strongly recommended. -- Ed

He's gotten some strong recommendations from local musicians as well.

I called and talked to Richard (Frank doesn't come in on Tuesdays) and am favorably impressed so far. I'm sending them pictures and will talk to Frank after they get them.

I had also called Elderly and got a very positive response, even though Stan Werbin was in a meeting. We'll talk tomorrow.

Thanks guys for pointing me to some good people, and I still have two more I can contact.