"Rest Stroke" at high speed?

[40bpm]

I've been practicing with my metronome and trying to use the "rest stroke". I'm OK up to about 80bpm, but then the pick direction reversals start getting hard. I notice that not all pickers use the rest stroke - what's the good advice about using rest strokes exclusively?

Jan

[Jim Broyles]

I guess this (scroll down) is what you mean. You just have to keep practicing it slowly, according to jazzmando.

[40bpm]

Thanks jbmando - that's exactly what I'm asking about. I can play 160bpm using free strokes, but rest strokes really slow me down. However, I get better tone and control with rest strokes - especially on double-stops. I'll keep practicing - heck what else am I gonna' do for the rest of my life?

Jan

[Jim Broyles]

Tell you the truth, I did not know what they were until 10 minutes ago, and I never consciously use them. Why do you want to?

Edit: Never mind. I see you said you get better tone and control with them. Well, practice, I guess.

[Jim Broyles]

Hey, you called me by my old name! You must be watching me!

[TomTyrrell]

what's the good advice about using rest strokes exclusively?

The good advice about using rest strokes exclusively is DON'T!

Use all the tools in your toolbox.

[Paul Kotapish]

A lot great Manouche players--Django-style jazz guitarists--play almost exclusively with rest strokes using a really fat pick. Many bluegrass mandolinists--and some guitarists--do something roughly equivalent. It's a valid approach that can get great results.

Here is some info with exercises and some demo video clips:

http://www.serendipity-band.com/misc...c/butee-en.htm

I've never been able to break myself of the the alternating stroke, but I do tend to use rest strokes when I want a more emphatic sound or a more Monroe-esque feel on a blues passage.

[John McGann]

Rest strokes help you keep your hand low to the strings, so when you alternate pick you tend not to lift the strings in the air, but rather play them 'down toward the top', which gives you a much better sound/projection, since the strings are ringing much more efficiently.

[Dfyngravity]

In my experience they are more of a tool/practice. You really can not play a rather quick tempo and do rest strokes because the "rest" takes time, therefore you can not play as quickly.

Here is what it does for you:
1. It keeps your stroke motion minimal. So if you are playing notes on the same string you can play them quicker and more efficient. This is crucial for great tremolo.
2. In order to do a rest stroke you actually have to dig in a bit harder to make sure you play through the string and come to rest on the one below it or above it. If you try to do it lightly, you will probably bounce off the string and it will be hard to come to rest on the below or above string. Being that you have to dig in a bit, you will get better volume and more control.


I use the rest stroke as a practicing tool. I sit there and do it until I can not longer stand it, speeding up, slowing down. In the last year, my right hand has improved greatly. I have better tone, more volume, and much more speed to my playing.

[ralph johansson]

i like to say that the rest stroke is implicit in everything i do.
for instance, most of my phrases end with a rest stroke because of the pick direction i use.

on the guitar i like to play a really hard rest stroke followed by hammer-ons or pull-offs or sweeps; the down stroke triggers these figures, as it were. not sure i can carry that over to the mandolin. i do like to play triplets with two downs on neighboring courses followed by an up on the higher course.

[John McGann]

In my experience they are more of a tool/practice. You really can not play a rather quick tempo and do rest strokes because the "rest" takes time, therefore you can not play as quickly.

I have to point out the entire Gypsy jazz idiom of guitar is based heavily on rest strokes. No lack of speed there- youtube the Rosenberg Trio for example...check the djangobooks.com forum on technique, etc.

Rather quick tempos

[40bpm]

Thanks for all the informative replies.

I've been practicing the rest stroke on both down and up picking - is it correct to do it in both directions?

Another advantage of the rest stroke is that you are guaranteed to play thru both strings on a given course (or courses for double stops). More tone, more volume, more control.

It hadn't occurred to me that rest strokes would encourage one to keep the pick close to the strings at all times.

I'll keep doing it with the metronome - 40bpm is my handle for a reason!

Jan

[TomTyrrell]

Gypsy Jazz guitar players use downstrokes a lot more than your typical mandolin player today. For some reason, there is a school of thought in the mandolin world that you absolutely MUST adhere to the alternating (downupdownup) picking even when changing strings.

I pretty much use downstrokes whenever I can. They used to be true rest strokes but there comes a time when you don't really have to rest your pick on the next string to get the power. I practiced rest upstrokes a lot so those upstrokes don't sound much different than the downstrokes. I can only do 120 downstrokes a minute for about 30 seconds so being able to use upstrokes is quite handy.

[Dfyngravity]

I don't think you absolutely have to adhere to D U D U pick strokes at all. In basic pick stroke theory, 1/8th notes are usually played D U D U. But that is not always the case, you could be playing a jig in 6/8 and then it is nice to use D D U to get that rhythmic feel. Crosspicking is also done using D D U strokes. Or you simply might want a particular feel or groove that requires you to break the D U D U strokes.

Bill Monroe used the downstroke quite well. And it is still used quite a bit in bluegrass. And yes you can play at a rather quick pace using only downstrokes, but you simply can not play at the pace you can if you add in upstrokes. I just don't see how you can play a fast pace and do a true rest stroke. You may be coming in contact with the string above or below the one you plucked but I wouldn't call that a true rest stroke.

Brad Davis (the guitarist, played with Sam Bush) has a great technique using D D U strokes on two consecutive strings. He explains that you use a rest stroke to practice, but once you get it p to speed the D D basically becomes one motion of D and then U.

Anyways, I love using the rest stroke to practice. For me it keeps my pick motion to a minimum.

Here are some good videos....
http://www.mandolinsessions.com/apr08/Keyes.html

[chip]

Could someone post an example of a "rest stroke" being used. I'm completely lost on this post.

[Dfyngravity]

Check out the link I posted. look at the videos...righthandpart1.

Basically to pluck a string, say the D string with a downstroke and then the pick comes to rest on the A string or the G string if you do an upstroke on the D string.

[chip]

So what's the advantage of doing this verses plucking the note and lifting?

[Dfyngravity]

Advantages:

1. It keeps the motion of your stroke to a minimum. It keeps the pick in the confounds of the strings below and/or above the once plucked.
2. Forces you to drive through the string producing a bit more volume and better tone.
3. Keeps your hand and pick closer to the strings.

[chip]

That's a lot harder to do than it is to see. Interesting. Now I'm completly screwed up in dudu

[Jim Broyles]

So what's the advantage of doing this verses plucking the note and lifting?

Well, I don't lift, but I don't use the rest stroke either. I see no advantage to deliberately coming to rest on the adjacent string.

Keeps your stroke to a minimum? How? Seems to me it forces you to use a wider stroke.

[chip]

Actually, I don't lift either but I sort of see where the volume, tone and sound would be affected by this motion. Interesting.

[ald]

Actually, it's very interesting what Peter says in those videos. What he says, I think, is to practice the rest stroke so you get the feel in in your plectrum. I don't think you have to actually do the sweep to the next string all the time in a real situation. I think what you are after is the tiddlywinks motion (mentioned by Ted once when talking about rest strokes). I also listened to his advice on tremelos where he mentioned stopping on the next string as well (in your imagination at least). I tried this with the tiddlywink image in mind and the sound seemed to be much improved. The opposite of what Marilynn Mair says about tremelos (no force on the downstroke, just going with gravity but a touch of force on the upstroke - no criticism of Marilynn intended, it works very well for her). Any ideas on this?

[Dfyngravity]

Well, I don't lift, but I don't use the rest stroke either. I see no advantage to deliberately coming to rest on the adjacent string.

Keeps your stroke to a minimum? How? Seems to me it forces you to use a wider stroke.

Like I said, I use it as practice to help keep my motion of my right hand solid. And it does keep your stroke to a minimum. Here how I see it: by doing a rest stroke you have to use a bit of force, playing through the string and coming to rest on the next string. This keeps your motion somewhat one dimensional, basically your wrist is hinging down or up. However, the lighter your touch and quicker to play, your wrist motion becomes more two dimensional...your wrist hinges down or up and then as the pick his the string the wrist then hinges out away from the strings. In order to make the next stroke you have to hinge your wrist back to the strings and then up or down. So the closer you can keep the pick to the strings the smaller your stroke becomes, and practicing the rest stroke I believe helps you to do it.

Jim, I doubt to make a conscious effort to lift, but it is a natural motion in a pick stroke. If you were you take a high speed camera and what your pick stroke at like 30 frames per second or more, you would see your stoke is similar to what I just described. You don't necessarily lift your arm away from the strings, but your wrist will hinge slightly away from the strings, it is this motion you want to keep to a minimum so you have less of a distance to return your pick to the strings.

[Jim Broyles]

Actually, it doesn't do that. My pick stays between the strings,but I don't make it come to rest on the next string. I don't see how making it rest on the next string can keep your stroke smaller.

[TomTyrrell]

I don't see how making it rest on the next string can keep your stroke smaller.

It doesn't but that "rest" statement does make it easier to explain the stroke in words. Most people have a tendancy to swoop in and out with the pick when they hit the string. Practicing those slow rest strokes can help them learn not to do that. Anything that helps one learn to use a nice flat stroke though both strings will improve tone (unless you already make nice flat strokes).

Practicing rest strokes on double stops can be even more valuable. A nice flat pick stroke across both courses really helps the sound of double stops.