Hello!
I am learning to play a song that has the following progression:
verse:
A - A - G - E
A - D - G - E
chorus:
G - D - A
G - D - E
I'm just curious, but what key would this be? It doesn't seem to fit into any.
Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Hello!
I am learning to play a song that has the following progression:
verse:
A - A - G - E
A - D - G - E
chorus:
G - D - A
G - D - E
I'm just curious, but what key would this be? It doesn't seem to fit into any.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
You'll hear this chord group named differently depending on who's doing the naming. It can be A with a "flat 7" chord thrown in, or, more accurately, A mixolydian mode. Old Joe Clark is an example of a song/tune in mixolydian mode.
"I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp
"Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann
"IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
General tendency of songs to end on the Tonic [the 1] of the key , so all resolves nice and comfortable. doesn't leave you waiting for the ...
writing about music
is like dancing,
about architecture
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
In this case the chorus is leading back to the verse, hence the E at the end of it. Yup, I'd call it A mixolydian.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Caution: Theory Geek Alert!
A mixolydian would have an Em, not E.
This progression doesn't fit into any one key; and there are crafty ways of dealing with the outside of key chords (in Berklee harmony classes they'd be called 'modal interchange' chords).
I hear E as the 'tonal center' (not the key, but the 'home pitch') with the G and D as the bIII and bVII modal interchange chords- D 'borrowed' from E mixo and G 'borrowed' from E minor (could be dorian or aeolian).
It reminds me of The Who's "I Can See For Miles"...
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Darn! That McGann fellow said exactly what I was going to say.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
i don't know...
i'm out of my depth here...but it seems to me it's in A with the G performing an accidental role...
i guess it would ultimately depend on what's going on in the melody...
Wish:
Andersen F style Gold Standard
Keith Newell custom A
Reality:
Michael Kelly Dragonfly III
Savannah SA 100
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Ah! Thanks John, I love learning theory. That sorta explains some of those weird Monroe changes.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
I'd be curious to see the melody notes. It's possible the song itself is in a simple key, with the harmony getting a little exotic. What song is it?
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Have you not read any theory threads, ApK? There are no "simple" questions!
Valley Road Bluegrass Band
www.valleyroadbluegrass.com
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Yeah, according to the theoretical notes of the mode, and I knew this when I was first posting my response, but then I saw where Old Joe Clark was given as an example of a tune in mixolydian mode. Well, around these here parts, the chords for OJC are A, E and G. The E is major and acts as a V chord, that's why I'd rather call this set of chords "A with a flat 7 thrown in."Originally Posted by John McGann
"I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp
"Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann
"IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Since both sections resolve to an E, a logical guess would be that the song is in the key of E.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Black Clouds by the String Cheese Incident
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Sound clip (from official web site) if anyone can make anything of it:
http://www.madisonhousepublicity.com...al/clouds2.mp3
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
I don't have time right now to expand, but those chords you charted in the first post are incomplete. The verse goes A G D, A G D E and the song is in the key of A. The E chord in the chorus is the V chord and it leads to the I (A) of the verse.
"I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp
"Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann
"IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
APK, that clip is confusing because it is kind of out of context until the end where they start singing again, but the studio cut I listened to on Rhapsody (without an instrument in my hand) was quite clear that the first chord of the verse is the key of the song. If it's A, the song is in A, but there are other chords besides the scalar chords of the key of A in it. G major is one. I will chart it after I get back.
"I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp
"Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann
"IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Yeah, it was the only legal clip I could find on short notice.
A.W.Y., I'm guessing the chords you posted are from the same Internet transcription that I found when I searched:
http://www.e-chords.com/guitartab.asp?idmusica=71953
Chord sheets on the Internet are usually random people's guess-work and range from "Wow, that person should do transcriptions professionally!" to "What the heck was he smoking?!?"
And sometimes, even if you find a really good sounding chord sheet on the net that goes well with a song, it's not necessarily what the composer actually wrote or intended.
Which makes the original question either "What key is 'Black Clouds' in?" or "What key is this chord progression in?" and they may not be the same answer.
I'm likely to trust JB's answer to the first question, and JM's answer to the second.
ApK
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Sounds to me like it's in A major, and that it's deliberately made to sound like it's mixolydian without really being mixolydian.
The G chord, then, is not really a replacement for the V chord, as it normally would in A mixolydian. It's more like a IV of IV chord (G resolving to D), kind of a double plagal cadence, G to D To A (the plagal cadence is generally defined as a IV-I). Or at least that's how it sounds to me.
And then there's a proper V chord in the form of the E. The G# in the E chord really pops out and sounds almost out of key, so maybe it's A mixolydian after all!
The thing that teases us about this tune is that it references mixolydian conventions (the G chord as a substitute dominant) while it's really doing its plagal thing, but then tosses in a full-fledged V chord.
They're deliberately trying to keep us a little off balance. Works nicely, doesn't it?
Doug Hoople
Adult-onset Instrumentalist (or was that addled-onset?)
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
OK, I'm cleaning the Diet Coke off my keyboard.
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
I don't see that a G# (that is the E major chord rather than e minor) would negate A mixolydian any more than it would negate A aeolian, and it is a fairly common occurence in the latter. The V chord in a minor key according to the key signature is a minor chord but you almost never hear it that way. V chords just like to be major (it's a dominant thing).
Bobby Bill
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
I usually agree 100% with Mr McGann's opinions. He is clearly a great teacher and player but on this one I want to offer another opinion. According to the Book "The Study of Counterpoint" which is a translation of Joseph Fux's "Gradus ad Parnassum" originally published in 1725, when using modes (church modes) it is acceptable to raise the 7th degree of the scale so that it is 1/2 step from the tonic claiming it would be easier to sing that note. That raised 7th or leading tone (G#) would make the E chord major. The G natural note may also appear in the melody or harmony because that is the note that is in the Mixolidian mode.
A few cases in point are Old Joe Clark and The Red Haired Boy. Many people use a dominant V chord and a bVII chord in both tunes. The Dominant V chord is used at the end of the phrase to bring you back to the tonic but the bVII chord is used in the middle of the form. I think many people consider both of these fiddle tunes to be modal.
This progression is interesting in that it does rest on the E chord but the song is clearly not in E major.
This book I reference was used by J.S. Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven as a study of counterpoint and is a great read. I guess these discussions are what make music so interesting and why we can spend a lifetime learning about it and still not have it all figured out. Just the fact that we can find similarities in Bach, Fiddle Tunes, and Jam Bands seems pretty cool to me. With all due respect to John McGann, please keep posting your wisdom here at the cafe. I just want to offer another viewpoint.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
It's a little like saying that Shakespeare's sonnets and the postings here on the Cafe have striking similiarities because they both share the use of words and sentences.
I think Fux would be a bit dismayed at the sounds of modern music, with the abruptness and arbitrary movement of the chord progressions. He'd most particularly be appalled at the lack of voice leading and the unembarrassed use of parallel motion. You don't get much past page one of chapter one (metaphorically speaking) before the rules have already been flagrantly violated. One of the primary directives in the study of counterpoint is the avoidance of parallel fifths.
In the tune we're listening to on this thread, we're hearing some pretty raw parallel chord forms.
Nothing wrong with that, actually, because that's part of how 20th century popular music evolved, and it features other elements that make up for the lack of 18th century refinement. But it's a stretch to point to Fux as a way of clarifying what's going on here, as if our tunewriters were carefully observing his rules.
Doug Hoople
Adult-onset Instrumentalist (or was that addled-onset?)
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
I obviously chose a terrible title for this thread.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Yeah. These threads are fun for me to watch, like watching people have a screaming fight in Urdu. I understand the theory stuff about as well.
I thought mixolydian was just a fancy-schmancy name for a bartender.
Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)
Help me out Doug. What key is it in and why?
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