Hand position for bar chords

[bradlaird]

I think it is rather elegant actually, much easier to do than the standard bar and it involves an economy of motion compared to a standard bar which is always a good thing. Also, I am finding that the more I play mando the less I use my thumb for that shape - it just sort of sits there but I'm getting good tone without much pressure from my thumb.

That's one of the big points I try to make. The thumb isn't there to "mash" or "squeeze" it just sits there touching the index fingertip offering some tactile stability and helping to define the fulcrum of the total arm, hand, finger geometry.

One of my basic points of opposition to the thumb on the back approach to mando barre chords is that most people tend to line it up parallel with the frets which rotates the fretting fingers similarly which, in turn, decreases the number of frets you can span without spreading the fingers. With an angled approach with the fingers it is just natural extension which allows you to reach higher frets. No sideways spreading. Well, not much.

Also, I see a lot of folks dropping their wrist to an almost 90 degree angle to get the thumb back there in the "proper" position and those tendons have to grind around the corner to do their work. So, another advantage to my (and others) higher thumb location is to help those puppet strings (tendons) do their job with less resistance.

There's my 1 cent worth... and worth every penny!
Brad Laird
http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin

[Rob Gerety]

Well, since we have you Brad - how do you finger the 4223 barre cord?

[mandroid]

Em barre ? index finger holds down the E & B notes, Middle the G , ring the 2nd B.

From the E Maj the ring and middle both move, middle the low B, and the ring, the Maj 3rd,G#,
index finger stays on the Root/1 and 5th of the chord.

.. move the whole thing up and it's Fm so learning which one is the root , is good.

I would avoid making the tendons go around a bent wrist..

[journeybear]

I make my barres as close to parallel to the frets as possible. I don't understand the angled approach but if that works for you, fine. I'll find myself doing it unconsciously sometimes, but I've never thought about it that much. As I am fond of telling folks when asked, "How do you get your fingers between those tiny frets?" - I don't. It doesn't matter where your fingers are below the fret, as long as you don't go over the fret.

My thumb is usually in a position not unlike Brad's in that video - that is, the neck is resting in the crook of my thumb, for chords and leads - even though I clearly remember the Mel Bay book I got when starting out eons ago showing me the "proper" technique was to put the tip of the thumb against the middle of the neck. That felt awfully unnatural and I never really tried to pursue that method. Occasionally, after playing for a while, my index finger's first knuckle grumbles from scrunching down to make those barres, and I'll relieve it by adding some pressure with my thumb for several seconds. But usually my fingers aren't stuck in one position long enough for this to be a critical consideration. For some odd reason, barre chords across the D and A strings (especially the 1224 E form) may lure my thumb to the back of the neck from time to time. I'm not sure why. Maybe just to use my hand's physiognomy differently for a bit and reduce any tendency toward cramping. It's a little mysterious, maybe just instinctive, and I really put very little thought into it; I just notice myself doing it sometimes.

[Rob Gerety]

What I meant to ask more specifically - and hopefully Brad will chime in - with the 4223 minor shape (I understand it moves up and down the neck) what does your hand position look like. Do you form the "barre" with your index laying across the entire neck the way you would on guitar - or do you use the tip of the index to cover both the A and D strings? Is your thumb placed directly behind the neck? Or is it along the side? (pictures would probably be the best way to so this, eh?)

And somewhat off topic but related (sorry!) if you have a wide fretboard - 1 3/16 for example - can you use the tip of your index to cover two stings? I assume so - I do it to form a two finger E major chord on guitar - but I am on the verge of buying a mando with a wider board like that and I'm just wondering what it will feel like - I'm used to 1 1/16 but also comfortable with the notion of adjusting to new things.

[AlanN]

I clearly remember the Mel Bay book I got when starting out eons ago showing me the "proper" technique was to put the tip of the thumb against the middle of the neck.

Yeah, I think I still have that same old book (now with yellowed pages), with Mel Bay hisownself pictured playing a very clean-looking A-50. He has the thumb behind the middle of the neck very often (as though pushing a tack into the wall), for many chord shapes...No Monroe chop shape to be found!... I actually used that book quite a bit starting out. He had several 9th voicings in there, cool.

I use that thumb position, also the thumb hanging over the top edge of the neck, it all depends.

[EdHanrahan]

... if you have a wide fretboard ... can you use the tip of your index to cover two stings?

Good question! With average fingers, I often cover 2 courses with a fingertip, but could NOT (open Em 0220) on a friend's wider Mid-Mo. But I normally play that 4223 formation with a flat index finger anyway 'cause the strings spread as you go up the neck.

But I also can't fingertip 2 strings on guitar (your E major), so you may have no problem on a wider mando neck.

[journeybear]

Yeah, I think I still have that same old book ... No Monroe chop shape to be found!... I actually used that book quite a bit starting out. He had several 9th voicings in there, cool.

It's been too long, so I can't say for sure if the G chop chord was in there (7523) but the related F chord was (5301) so that's not a big leap. I may be remembering the Mel Bay mandolin chord book more than his "How To Play The Mandolin" book, which was too simplistic even for me as a beginner ... ... I vaguely recall being shown the G chop in college, though ...

... with the 4223 minor shape ... what does your hand position look like...

I use the same hand position I would if I were playing it 0223 - index barring the D and A strings and midde on the E string - and reach the ring finger over to the G string. With chords that require that kind of stretch, I tend to rotate my hand a bit more to make the reach easier, which may bring the thumb more toward the back of the neck.

I think it's important to learn alternative means of making chords. It keeps you from getting locked into one position, and helps you be more comfortable with the fretboard as you move up and down the neck. Sometimes you have to change chords pretty quickly, and it's good to have as many possibilities in your bag of tricks as possible.

[AlanN]

Yes, the 5-3-0-1 F shape was in there (Mel played it pinky on 5, middle on 3, index on 1).

Now thinking back on it, I can't quite recall where I first saw the big G shape. Maybe a photo on an album jacket (but have been doing it forever).

[journeybear]

Yep. Still use that F shape all the time. Have to be careful to blunt the open A string right after strumming, as with any chord that incorporates open strings. Had a revelation when I realized that sliding the fingers up a fret while leaving the A string open made an F#m chord, still my favorite way to finger that. And then leaving the E string open made a really cool F#m7 ... but I'm veering ...

[mandroid]

Back to #28, I use the pad, laid down, not the end, of the 1st joint of my index finger.

Use that alone, fretting both, for melody on E minor key stuff.

[Rob Gerety]

But I also can't fingertip 2 strings on guitar (your E major), so you may have no problem on a wider mando neck.

Well, truth be known, on guitar I probably am muting one or the other of the strings I'm covering depending on the situation - although I think sometimes I may also get a ring out of both. Not sure.

[bradlaird]

Well, since we have you Brad - how do you finger the 4223 barre cord?

I had to go play one to see how I do it... I noticed that on that shape I am backing the neck up with more of the base of the thumb and the heel of my hand. Not sure why. It just seems easier to me. Here's a still shot from one of my videos that shows my hand playing that chord.



I am playing a borrowed Eastman in this shot (my mando was being re-fretted) and it has a pretty rounded neck shape, not like the V of my Flatiron, so it's possible I changed my method of "mashing" for that moment.

Brad Laird
http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin

[Rob Gerety]

Very helpful. Thanks for posted that Brad. It looks like you are using just the pad of your index to cover both strings on the barre. I had been playing that more like a guitar full bar and I am going to give your method a try. I don't like having to move my thumb back behind the neck for the traditional guitar barre. Too much movement. Its really slow.

[Fretbear]

The overall string spacing at the nut becomes critical when wanting to barre four strings (two pair) with a "squashed" fingertip. When chording they are more forgiving, but when you start to use them more for leads, it becomes necessary to be able to get in and out of them very smoothly and quickly. As a 1 & 5 interval they are handy for all kinds of applications and have both a modern as well as an ancient sound. I adjusted my string spacing specifically to be able to grab barres like that, without having to overly flatten my finger.

[Rob Gerety]

You can also roll a bit - I've been working on this technique playing guitar and it is gradually becoming second nature and once you get the technique down it is very fast and efficient.

That fretboard that Brad is using looks fairly wide - maybe 1 1/8? - and still he is getting good coverage with the one finger.

[Pete Martin]

If I did that with my '85 Flatiron I would have a sore thumb. It has a seriously "veed" neck and when I play the barres that way it isn't long until my thumb is throbbing like #$#@!.



Brad
http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin

Good points Brad. Makes me remember when I had a lot of problems with barre chords and then remembering that I had a neck with a very serious V shape. All mandos I've owned since have had rounded necks. One thing that helped me a lot was playing Texas style guitar and tenor guitar backup. You are barring all the time on those things. Makes the mando a piece of cake.

The point Brad makes is worth dwelling on: we have to be detectives of our own playing and find things that work for us. When you find something that works, watch yourself CLOSELY in a mirror from many different angles. Make sure you are not using excess tension (which can cause overuse injury). The advice of a good teacher can really help here as well.

Best of luck!!