Interpreting Bagpipe Arrangements on Mandolin

[Doug Hoople]

I guess the pipe notation omits the key signature because pipers would know that already and really would not have any other choice on how to play it from the sheet music.

Most pipers are unaware that their pipes are built for A mixolydian. Most (not all) would be baffled by the notion. They have 9 notes they can play from G to A (leaving aside partial-hole tricks), arrayed approximately in what we think of as D major (hence the A mixolydian). Thus, there's no need for a key signature, as there are no chromatic alterations to fuss with.

When reading notation straight out of an old piper's tutorial, then, it's necessary to superimpose an imaginary F# and C# onto the staff in order to get the notes to sound approximately right.

The low G and the high G are not tuned in a straight octave. The low G is a proper whole step below the low A. But the high G, depending on the chanter, hovers somewhere between G natural and G#, leaning more toward the G natural. The standard for the pitch of the upper G has changed, and so a chanter from before, say 1960, will have a different upper G than a chanter built after. And pipe bands generally get all their pipes built by the same builder, as the scale on chanters differs from builder to builder, as does the frequency chosen for the A.

If there's any mandolin wisdom to this, I suppose it would be that the bottom G on our mandolins can be left as it is, but there could be a bit of bending or ornamentation that raises the upper G a bit.

If you ever decide to try playing along with a pipe recording, you'll need to get software to lower the pitch. Standard pitch has been rising for centuries, and for most of us (pianos, orchestras, guitars, mandolins), we stopped at A440, but the frequency for A on bagpipes goes up and up, and the base frequency for A now hovers near to what we think of as Bb (as already mentioned).

It's an arms race, actually. Pipe bands keep raising the base frequency in order to sound louder at piping contests, and the more radical among these are basing their A at the frequency of B natural. That's not an arbitrary choice made at performance time... the builder has to build the pipes to be in tune at the chosen frequency... you can change the base pitch on a set of pipes, but drift too far from the frequency they're built for, and the whole scale gets out of whack.

Probably more information than necessary. We may have settled on equal-tempered tuning based on A440 for everything we do, but tuning is still a medieval art on the bagpipes

As regards tuning, we may think we're cursed with an instrument that's impossible to play in tune (there are only three mandonlins in the world that are in tune, and David Grisman has two of them), but bagpipes are, by definition, ALWAYS out of tune.

[Roland Sturm]

tuning is still a medieval art on the bagpipes

Yep, that sums it up, fussing around with the reeds, taping chanter holes, sometimes altering chanter holes. And then tuning up every time, a medieval torture (but then a modern car alarm is as annoying). Mandolin is a much more user friendly instrument.

However, I would disagree with that:

bagpipes are, by definition, ALWAYS out of tune.

No, by definition, mandolins are always out of tune, including Grisman's, as long as you accept that "in tune" means that the intervals between notes correspond to natural harmonic ratios.
This is an immediate consequence of equal temperament that allows modern instruments to play equally well in all keys, yet somewhat out of tune in all of them. Western Classical music modulates across keys, so being tolerable in all keys is a desirable property. But rather than harmonic ratios, now intervals correspond to powers of the 12th root of 2.

So good bagpipe playing is perfectly in tune and at a level that we can't get to on mandolin. Good violin players can also play in tune, an art for string quartets. It is the "good" that matters, I always sound more in tune on mandolin than either fiddle or pipes. The frets on mandolin are an equalizer across skill levels.

Pipe music does not require this ability to modulate to different keys, you have unchanging drones, so it trades harmonic flexibility for much enhanced purity of tuning. Equal temperament works fine for 4ths (like from A to D) and 5ths (from A to E), but major 3rds (A to C#, 5:4) and 6ths (A to F# 5:3) are quite far from exact harmonic ratios. Arguably an exact ratios 5:4, i.e. 1.25 sounds a lot better than the equal temperament ratio of the 4/12th power of 2.

The only odd one is the G. There seem to be 3 ratios that are common: 9:5, 16:9, and 7:4. The first one is the sharpest and may be the one used in older chanters, that's probably what you referred to. 16:9 seems to be the most complicated ratio, although that is the ratio for just temperament in Western Classical music. I believe that is what my chanter is, only a few cents off equal temperament. 7:4 would seem flat, certainly sounds flat to Western ears, but that note's harmonics coincide exactly with every 7th harmonic of the bass drone.

And when everything is in tune and the harmonic overtones match, it just is one great sound that just never happens with equal temperament.

[Doug Hoople]

However, I would disagree with that: Originally Posted by Doug Hoople
bagpipes are, by definition, ALWAYS out of tune.

I'll accept this disagreement with the following caveats:

1) that we're talking about a solo piper,
2) playing a set of pipes built by a gifted builder who drilled his holes perfectly
3) that this set of pipes is tuned that day to the reference frequency that the builder built them for
4) that the temperament that the builder chose is one of the "good" piping temperaments

As soon as you put two pipers together, though, especially if their pipes were built by different builders, or from different eras, you've got a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

I'll also accept that an equal-tempered major third is never "in-tune," in that an "in-tune" major third is pretty harsh, relative to thirds in some of the temperaments to which you refer. Anyone who's actually heard an equal-tempered major third side-by-side with one of the purer thirds would likely never forget the difference, and the purer thirds are sweeter by far.

So, then, I guess the old joke about only three mandolins in the world being in tune gets an asterisk, a bit like Barry Bonds and his home run record, having been made possible only through modern contrivance.

[Roland Sturm]

As soon as you put two pipers together, though, especially if their pipes were built by different builders, or from different eras, you've got a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Something like that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO0b3bgX9Ro
I think they have a leg up on any mandolin orchestra!

I wonder if there are similarly powerful mandolin performances? I'll start a new threat on that. I'm actually curious if there are mandolin videos that show influential, but poor, performances (in the sense of shaping the public's opinion of the instrument). Or is that something limited to bagpipes in the traditional music world (ok, maybe banjos, too).

[Roland Sturm]

I got intrigued by the tune, so I typed up a straightforward version of it and attach the pdf. It is one of those 2/4 competition marches, not exactly my favorite style, but it started growing on me after playing it a few times on the mandolin. This is really plain, I think I got all the melody notes, but bagpipes would play almost as many additional notes as ornaments (the standard version is really, really dressed up, that's why it is a competition tune). Of course, the bagpipe ornaments are totally useless to try on a mandolin, they exist because they lie well on pipes. If you want to dress it up you have to do something different that suits the mandolin.

Anywhere, John, here it is: The Brigadier General Ronald Cheape in easily readable format:

[Bob DeVellis]

Very informative thread, folks.

[Roland Sturm]

That is a hard tune on many margins. I gave it a shot in the attached Mp3. It probably should be taken a bit faster, but I'm not ready for that, can't even get the 4th part right at this stately pace. Some tunes lie well under the fingers, this isn't one of them.

The sheet music is a bit hard to read with all the dotted notes (the "pointed" style that became the standard for these type of tunes), but trying to pick it up by ear isn't any easier with the quick repeated notes. At least I find it hard to play and memorize so I don't think it'll make it into my repertoire. It is a nice 2/4 march, though.

Lot's of pipe recordings, of course, but is there any mandolin or fiddle recording of it?

[Bernie Daniel]

This is a remarkable thread and should be preserved in the Celtic section's hall of fame. There is so much great Scottish bagpipe music (which also GREAT MUSIC period) out there on the web both printed and electronic (midis or mp3) format.

But I have experienced all of the frustrations in trying to adapt this music to the mandolin. I had almost given up on converting the sheet or midis to readable mandolin tab and had decided by ear was the only way.

Ron clairfied that for me in the Glen Caladh Castle string -- this greatly expands on that and I thank all of the contributors to this fine bit of information. I am going to copy this string to a Word file and edit it done. PM me and I will send it along to you -- might be a couple of week though.

Ron do not appologize for your "shot" at the "General" it was a fine effort indeed -- I woud have to work days to get it to that level.

[Martin Jonas]

Lot's of pipe recordings, of course, but is there any mandolin or fiddle recording of it?

While I haven't heard the track, this CD includes the tune as part of a medley called "Canadian Barn Dance" (confusingly), and as the line-up is listed as accordion, fiddle, keyboard and drums I presume it's not a pipe recording. Probably accordion-dominated, though.

Martin