Learning the fretboard

[Mark Gunter]

The same scale played open, say a G, D, A is the same pattern up the neck. If you don't know the notes count up and find where you need to be. Knowing what part of the scale works for the 1 the 4 and the 5 in the open position is the same up the neck. Use this open position scale pattern up the neck until you are comfortable with it, you can do a lot with just this. When you are comfortable start exploring other pattern like starting with your middle or any other finger on the root note and find the pattern. Remember a minor pattern is exactly the same as a major pattern you are just in a different place on the pattern. Key of C you can play Am starting at the C and use the same pattern, you need to remember to resolve of the A. It will vary with different tunes, but it works. Now you can see where the Am is starting with an A note. Since you already (hopefully) know the C scale it makes it easier to find the minor ones. Works the same with all the relative minor's. D to Bm, G to Em, A to F#m etc. It gets to be fun.

This is all good stuff, regular music theory applied to mandolin. I'm pretty familiar with this stuff, too, and do play some up the neck and noodle up there. Knowing major scales and relative minors is great, I can play them. I like to practice the FFcP sometimes, and arpeggios, and just noodle around with scales. I'm a mandolin newbie and not too good with it, but I can actually play some stuff and figure out some stuff. What I'm trying to do now is start working on learning the notes of the fretboard cold. That's the topic of the OP here.

I can play scales and stuff, but I don't know what note I'm on in the middle of a scale without thinking about it. When I want to move something around the neck, I have to stop and figure out where the right note is to start on. stuff like that.

[pops1]

I play mostly using the patterns and know where on the patterns I need to be for the 1, 4, and 5 also minor, 2 etc. As for notes I know a fair amount of notes up the neck, and figure I don't need to know where they all are if I know 1/3 to 1/2 I can easily find where I may need to be if it is different. The more you use it the more you pick up and know. I rarely know what note I am on in the middle of a scale, not sure I need to know that as I am going by it fairly fast and just need to know where to be when the chord changes. If I know what part of the pattern I can play on each chord in the song/tune then I really don't need to know what note I am on all the time. Just my take.

[Cosmic Graffiti]

I have a classical violin back ground where buying into fixed positions is part of the curiculum. My mandolin teacher has taught me the moveable scale patterns and it opened up the entire mandolin for me. I feel the whole fret board is at my disposal. Also I now see how restraining and boxed in fixed positions are.

After having tried several ways to learn The fret board on violin (graphs, charts , diagrams, positions, formulas , theroys and theories on theories) I can say for me that moveable scale patterns were the clearest route.

Practice them every day all on fingers (1-4) as starting points in different keys and not only will you learn the fret board you will also start to recognize keys and key changes.

Don Julin has a whole section on his site dedicated to this called " mastering the fret board". Well worth the investment to just learn these.

[Bill Slovin]

I've played mando for a while but in the past 3 years focused on really learning the fingerboard and my way around the instrument outside of the standard bluegrass shapes and licks. Here's what I did:

1. Learned to read music. Seems hard at first but if you take it slowly and spend a few minutes a day on reading it will come in only a few months. That will help your understanding of rhythms too.

2. Practiced closed position scales and arpeggios in all of the keys. Many of the violin method books have these exercises in them and if you can read (see #1) they will be very useful. You can also try Mike Marshall's Arpeggio Workout or Chris Thile's homespun videos. Both have a lot of good exercises, that will teach you to shift into different positions.

3. Took some easy fiddle tunes and learned how to play them in all of the keys. If you have no interest in reading music, this is a good way to learn the fingerboard since you're ear will guide you. It does help if you understand the numbers of the notes in a scale so you can easily transpose the tunes to different keys. You'll quickly learn that playing even the simplest tune in all the keys requires knowledge of most of the notes on the fingerboard.

4. Joined a mandolin orchestra. This helped a ton with my ability to sight read and learn complex classical pieces.

Hope that helps.

[JonZ]

There is a great piece of software for helping to learn the fretboard: The Absolute Fretboard Trainer

http://www.absolutefretboard.com/aft/mandolin.asp

It works for mandolin as well as guitar. I think that you can download a sample version of the program to try for 30 days.

The problem with this program is that it treats all notes equally. You end up reviewing the notes you know well as much as the ones you know poorly. Yes, it can "work" as a brute force method, but it is not efficient.

[Mark Gunter]

Lots of helpful info here, thanks.

[JonZ]

I posted an ad for free intelligent flashcards for learning the mandolin fretboard in the classifieds:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/105667#105667

No bells and whistles, but it will get the job done.

[parttimepicker]

Two tips I've heard and have been working on:
1) take a song you know and play it slowly, naming the notes as you go. Move it up a fret and repeat.
2) If you use a smartphone, there are fretboard trainer apps. I use one called RR Fretboard Trainer on the ride to work and it's helped a lot.

[JeffD]

Moveable patterns and chord shapes are (to my way of thinking) gigantic.

Knowing that this fret here on this string here is a G, is not nearly as important as knowing

that it is the same note as that location over there, and there.
and that it is an octave above that position over there
and a fifth up from that location over there,
and the major chord for what ever this note is can be made like this
and the minor chord for what ever this note is can be made like that
and that these cool double stop harmonies for this note can be found here and here

All that kind of stuff. And that comes with moveable shapes and patterns really quickly. What to name it comes more slowly.

[Cosmic Graffiti]

Moveable patterns and chord shapes are (to my way of thinking) gigantic.

All that kind of stuff. And that comes with moveable shapes and patterns really quickly. What to name it comes more slowly.

Oh man such a great way to explain it. I am finding a lot of things in moveable scale patterns that sound great but I have zero clue what to call them. So right on, that naming what you are doing will come in time. I pulled out some dope licks in an improv with Don last week and he said "Show me what you did there because that is an actual thing in music" Meaning....that by playing with the moveable scale patterns my ear and fingers automatically started to make connections that are legit.

I would say that MSP and playing on beats 2 and 4 were both monumental in my development. I have so far to go but feel that learning those two things well are like a launching pad of sorts. I guess time will tell.

-Giant Steps-

[CES]

not as good as actually doing it on the instrument, but Fret Tester is a free app that gives u some practice when you're bored at work, stuck on an airplane, etc

[JonZ]

I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.

You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.

[JonZ]

not as good as actually doing it on the instrument, but Fret Tester is a free app that gives u some practice when you're bored at work, stuck on an airplane, etc

Fret Tester looks pretty promising. For $2 (no longer free) it might be more convenient than what I posted for free.

Does it keep track of the notes you know and the notes you don't know? In other words, does it review the hardest notes more frequently? That's where I see a lot of programs fall short.

[Mandoplumb]

I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.
You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.

Maybe if you are playing by standard notation. I read basic notation, know a little theory certainly not as much as a lot of folks that post here, but I play mandolin by ear. To know what notes go with what notes (patterns) is more important than knowing the name of the note. If I need to know the name I can count up the board and figure it out but if I change keys the pattern is easier than thinking each note to note by name. I guess it's just what you are use to.

[CES]

Fret Tester looks pretty promising. For $2 (no longer free) it might be more convenient than what I posted for free.

Does it keep track of the notes you know and the notes you don't know? In other words, does it review the hardest notes more frequently? That's where I see a lot of programs fall short.

Thanks for the correction on price, been a couple of years since I downloaded it! I haven't actually opened it since I was last stuck on a plane (maybe 7-8 months ago), but I don't think it utilizes logic to increase difficulty or cycle through the ones you miss more often. Can't say with authority, though, just going off recollection...

[Cosmic Graffiti]

I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.

You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.

Hi Jon, The idea is that you are starting by learning the pattern and as you develop and start to practice the pattern in different keys and in different areas of the fret board you start to relate everything on the fret board together. We all learn differently though so if you have tried them and do not see relationship and how powerful this method is then I would say its not for you. If you have not tried them then think about giving them some time in your practice for a month and I would bet you would see the potential.

[JeffD]

I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.

I agree. Is your point the "ham sandwhich" argument, that the original question is how does one learn the names of the locations, and here I am talking about patterns?

You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.

I also agree. My point is that knowing where Bb is on the E string is important for understanding, and for talking about the tunes/music/playing mechanics, all important stuff, but learning moveable patterns and shapes will get you actually playing up the neck next month at the jam, which (my prejudice perhaps) is the real important stuff.

Maybe we are in violent agreement.

To much separation between the two kinds of skills will yield events such as this:

"Killer tune, dude, what key is that in?"

"Ummm, wait let me think, ummm..."

[JeffD]

I am thinking maybe it boils down to different kinds of learning. People are different.

I know in my experience that there are several guitar players of my acquaintance who know the names and shapes for hundreds of chords, but have no real idea how it can be that I can be playing a tune or playing with a tune and not know what key it is in and not know what key I am playing in.

At the same time my prejudice leads me to view them as having memorized the names of all the bones in the body and then feeling qualified to diagnose illness.

All snarkiness aside. Ya gotta learn it all, no question, and the sooner the better. Start where you start, learn what you need, plus a little more, dig around a little bit, and have a rip snorting good time. And however you get there you are gonna leave gaps in your knowledge, some of them embarrassing. Stay humble, play loud.

[Cosmic Graffiti]

Also, when learning MSP you do learn the location of all notes....if you choose to. You just need to be aware of what you are fretting in the pattern.

[JonZ]

I want to learn the fretboard thoroughly, so that I instinctively know that if I play this fret on that string it's a particular note.

I have fretboard diagrams, but they aren't really helping me internalize it. I've also tried playing scales while naming the notes aloud, but that's note quite doing it either.

What have you found are the best ways to really internalize the fretboard?

Thanks.

To learn this skill, you have to practice naming notes when given a location, and finding locations when given a note. To learn it efficiently, you need to practice the hard ones most and the easiest one least. To maintain the skill you need to either integrate the skill into other types of ongoing practice, or review as needed. Just playing all over the fretboard will not maintain this skill, if it doesn't entail finding and naming notes.

Learning other stuff is good too. There are people who can play very well, who have not learned this skill. But this is how you learn what the OP wants to learn.

[Mark Gunter]

To learn this skill, you have to practice naming notes when given a location, and finding locations when given a note. To learn it efficiently, you need to practice the hard ones most and the easiest one least. To maintain the skill you need to either integrate the skill into other types of ongoing practice, or review as needed. Just playing all over the fretboard will not maintain this skill, if it doesn't entail finding and naming notes.

Learning other stuff is good too. There are people who can play very well, who have not learned this skill. But this is how you learn what the OP wants to learn.

I might add, it should be fairly obvious that 1) There are others besides the OP who wish learn this and 2) this would be a useful skill. So, whether or not others give it much importance, it is a legitimate question. I think most of the responses have been very helpful, and I'm glad to have found this thread and to have heard from everyone who has made suggestions.

Personally, I think there are better ways to learn this than by rote memory with flash cards. Niles' suggestion was very good, and the method he gave (or at least portions of it) could be combined with position studies, scale patterns, etc. along with learning note positions. Pretty much all suggestions have been helpful, whereas any implications that this is "not important, don't worry about it" might have been less helpful.

Also, the original post is very, very old, recently resurrected, so if people want to stray a bit from the topic I wouldn't get too touchy about it. It's all good.

[JonZ]

I think you are wrong about this.

Often adding complications can help with learning something. The work your brain has to do creates a stronger memory, and the context provides a schema to which the new information adheres.

But in this situation, you want to be able to recall something without thinking about it. By practicing "In this pattern, C is here, so this is B" your are teaching your brain to go through a process to derive B. So you will get good at the process, rather than getting good at instantly recalling. You get good at what you practice.

For example, in elementary school I learned that 8 x 8 = 8 x 4 x 2, and I have always done it the second way. Practicing rote memorization was boring to me, and I had a method that worked good enough. I can tell you what 8 x 8 is, but it is not instant. I must go through the process that I have practiced.

So in this case, I think methods other than practicing "instant recall" are counterproductive to gaining instant recall. You gain instant recall most effectively by practicing instant recall.

There may be other benefits to other forms of practice to other parts of your playing, but they may actually hinder your progress in instantly recalling the fretboard.

[Mark Gunter]

JonZ, just a difference of opinion. What's right for you isn't necessarily right for everyone. I believe a wholistic approach is best. Not simply playing patterns and taking note of the notes (ha) but that certainly has its place in learning the fretboard.

I think that for me, learning notes by rote is part of it, but not with flash cards or phone apps. This would be practicing learning the location of each B note on the GDAE strings. And each of the other natural notes. In addition to practicing this, learning the notes at dotted frets, and learning the octave patterns will go a long way. Then, while practicing scales, arpeggios and other patterns, calling out the notes as Niles suggested can also help.

I think that for me, divorcing my learning process from the actual physical instrument fretboard using flash cards and phone apps, while maybe useful, would be the least likely path to where I want to be with this.

Analogy: http://www.guitarhabits.com/learn-th...ly-in-16-days/

[JonZ]

I provided my reasoning and evidence, and so did you, so it's not "just a difference of opinion". It is important to remember in "these times" that all disagreements are not just differences of opinion, and that all arguments are not equally valid. My argument could be weak or invalid, but it should not be dismissed as just an opinion. Likewise with your argument. Arguing is not bad.

Flash card methods can be practiced with instrument in hand. Flash cards and apps are just a scheduling method for review/testing. The more important part of what I am saying is that if you are not practicing instant recall, it will be more difficult to achieve it.

I don't know what you mean when you say "the least likely path to where I want to be with this." If you want to know where the notes are on the fretboard are, learning where they are seems like a good path.

[Mark Gunter]

You have, in your last post, expressed more opinion.

I don't know what you mean when you say "the least likely path to where I want to be with this." If you want to know where the notes are on the fretboard are, learning where they are seems like a good path.

Thanks for the admission that sometimes you just don't know what I mean. I'll explain. My goal is not to be able to look at charts or a device screen and associate notes with those. My goal is to put my finger at a fret and say Db.

From post #47

I think you are wrong about this.

"JonZ, just a difference of opinion. What's right for you isn't necessarily right for everyone."

Thanks for contributing your ideas on how to learn the fretboard. Much appreciated.