Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle???

[Bernie Daniel]

scgc.om: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle???

Hi you have recieved a lot of interesting information on your question that seems more about another question "what is old tyme music".

Here are my four answers to your OP because you asked a question of great interest to me -- keep in mind I am not qualified to answer but I have cosidered the question -- so what the hay:

1) listen to the version of Grey Eagle by Bill Monroe that Evan Reilly posted -- it is great and Evan is right -- it tells you a lot -- he posted earlier -- a year or so ago an I have listened to it about 100 times since then I learn something new every time -- thanks Evan!

2) get a fiddle and spend an additional $30 to buy a "fiddle fretter" (Google it) it is a cool device that sticks with adhesive to the fiddle fingerboard and gives you tiny "frets" -- you put you finger ON the frets not between them -- then you can bow a "fretted" instrument and after a while you can get a feeling for how the fiddle sound is made;

3) work on shuffle sounds -- using accentuated back picking to do it "Gery Eagle and also Jenny Lynn are good songs to practice on.

4) get in touch with David Long he has been working on this question for a while and he is a great mandolin player -- as suggest Skip Gorman knows a lot about this too.

Good Luck -- I really do not think you can make a mandolin sound exactly like a fiddle but you will make some great sounds that will certainly work in Old Tyme and you will have fun. That is the main thing.

[Barbara Shultz]

Wow, I finally got around to reading every post in this thread.

It makes me wonder how many of you scoff when you read in almost every post of mine "I play Celtic & Old-Time"..... not knowing about all the rules & regulations!

I am a relative newcomer to listening to and playing whatever this music is that we play. Until I started playing the mandolin, I would say I grew up listening to Rock & Roll, converted to Country Music in the 80's, enjoyed listening to Blues, and some Bluegrass music. I would have said that without knowing the parameters of descriptions of those genres.

So, when I decided I wanted to play music with my friends (who are now my fellow band members... and who told me these are Celtic & Old-Time tunes), I've just repeated what I'd been told... I play Celtic & Old-Time music. I usually say this to people who, upon learning that I play the mandolin, expect me to play bluegrass music. And one thing I can say for sure, there is a world of difference in what a mandolin plays in Celtic and Old-Time, and in what it plays in Bluegrass!

Our band is comprised of instruments that probably don't fit into the definition of true "old time" or true "irish traditional" bands, but we still call ourselves "Celtic & Old-Time / Traditional"

Again, in my completely uneducated defense, I believe that a lot of the tunes that we play, that we consider Old-Time, are the same tunes that are played in Bluegrass.... they are just played differently... especially where the mandolin is concerned.

As far as types of music go, tunes considered "Irish", "Scottish", "Celtic", "Old-Time", "Appalachian", "Mountain music", "Fiddle Tunes", etc. go rather well together! The tunes in the book "The Fiddler's Fakebook" come to mind!

Which leads me to another question. Is it the tune itself, or the way that it is played, or the instruments that play it, that determine the genre?

Barbara

[allenhopkins]

Is it the tune itself, or the way that it is played, or the instruments that play it, that determines the genre?

Yes.

[Barbara Shultz]

Yes.

haha! Take my pick, right?

[JeffD]

The real reality is that the edges are somewhat fuzzy. There is a body of music that, because of what is played, how it is played, and upon what instruments it is played, everyone would agree is OT. And then there is music on the edges of that, where most people would agree its OT, but some would raise and eyebrow. And then further to the edges there would be music that is OT only to those who play BG, but OT players in general think its too progressive, or too modern, or whatever.

The logicians out there appeal to continuous logic or "fuzzy" logic, to manage these kinds of things. Me, I just play.

[allenhopkins]

I've dropped this thread in frustration about four times, but keep coming back to it.

What get under my skin -- other than the complete departure from the original question, which could be paraphrased as "what's a good way to play mandolin in an old-timey context?" -- are the definitional disputes.

If one insists that only a certain kind of music -- fiddle-based, British-Isles-derived dance tunes, featuring chordal banjo, no-breaks ensemble playing, and few vocals -- qualifies as "old-time music," one excludes a whole galaxy of tunes, songs, and performers who considered themselves "old-time," and who most listeners and old-timey aficionados would also put in that category. Where, then, do you classify the Blue Sky Boys, Allen Brothers (guitar, tenor banjo and kazoo -- is that "old-time"?), Carolina Tar Heels, Ernest Stoneman, Carter Family, Darby & Tarleton, Frank Hutchinson, Dixon Brothers, Karl & Harty, and uncounted others who didn't play that style of music, but are generally included in the "old time music" category?

How best to play fiddle tunes on the mandolin, with ornamentation, attack and phrasing that complements an old-time fiddle, is one thing. Insisting on a rigid definition of a very much still-vital musical genre, is something else entirely.

[poymando]

There is certainly a place for a mando in old time music weather it is trying to sound like a mandolin or a fiddle. I took up the fiddle a couple of years back and it has really helped the way I think about fiddle tunes on the mando. Taking a few fiddle lessons might change the way you approach tunes on the mandolin.
There are also lots of great examples of the mando sounding like a mando (rather than a fiddle) on pre WWII commercial country music recordings.
In my opinion, listening closely to lots of OT music will help to inform your decision of what is the "right" thing to do with the mandolin in an old time string band setting.

[JeffD]

In my opinion, listening closely to lots of OT music will help to inform your decision of what is the "right" thing to do with the mandolin in an old time string band setting.

Thats it right there.

Listening is everything.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well, scgc.om you may not have recieved too much information on how to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle -- you asked very interesting question imo, btw.

Some tried to address it -- but they were drowned out.

But at least you got everyone's idea of what old time music is -- just in case you might have happened to have had a burning interest in that at the moment too!

Maybe you should start a new string with the same question since all the (hot?) air is out of the other ballon now?

[JeffD]

I am having a hard time making a fiddle sound like a fiddle, let alone a mandolin.

[Tom Smart]

Well, scgc.om you may not have recieved too much information on how to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle -- you asked very interesting question imo, btw.

Some tried to address it -- but they were drowned out.

But at least you got everyone's idea of what old time music is -- just in case you might have happened to have had a burning interest in that at the moment too!

I think there has been plenty of good advice regarding the original question--the best advice being listen and learn. The question "what is old time music" is absolutely relevant if it provides direction for listening and learning.

I have to take some of the responsibility for moving this thread in the direction of definitions. I dove into the discussion to counter the assertion that mandolins, and even guitars, are somehow not legitimate instruments in authentic old time music. I hope I've encouraged the original poster to think that, yes, there is a place for mandolin (and guitar, and cello, and piano, and tenor banjo, and kazoo, and...) in old time music, and that there are plenty of recorded examples to learn from.

Interestingly, on the other thread asking for advice on old time recordings, most of the answers point toward modern stuff--Bruce Molsky, Dirk Powell, Fuzzy Mountain, et. al. These guys are great, and there's nothing wrong with learning everything you can from them. But to get a really solid grounding, I think it's also important to go back to the scratchy old recordings of the original masters of the genre. Allen has listed a few of them above.

We're fortunate these days to have access to just about everything that was ever waxed, and the sheer variety and power of the early stuff is rarely matched today. Immersing yourself in that will get you a lot farther than reading through the Fiddler's Fakebook will. Here's a pretty good source: http://honkingduck.com/mc/node/1

[poymando]

I really agree with Tom. In my opinion, check out in order:
1-pre WWII commercial country recordings (lots of great reissues and free content on Honking Duck, Hadacol Cajun, Juneberry78s.com etc)
2-Field recordings of trad players (Lib of Congress, FRC etc)
3-Modern players like Molsky etc. (They have already done their homework and completed steps 1 and 2 and are speaking in their own voices)
and if your lucky by timing or location...visit a tradition bearer.

[woodwizard]

Here is a live clip of a famous mandolin player playing my request for 'The Grey Eagle'. Listen to his introduction to the tune! http://theworld.com/~ereilly/greyeagle.mp3

***
Great clip! there Evan... Thanks! That sounds old time to me. Tunes like that one, Jenny Lynn and many others ... well ... I just can't help but feel good everytime I hear them. I'm hooked.

[Bernie Daniel]

Tom Smart: I think there has been plenty of good advice regarding the original question--the best advice being listen and learn. The question "what is old time music" is absolutely relevant if it provides direction for listening and learning.

I have to take some of the responsibility for moving this thread in the direction of definitions. I dove into the discussion to counter the assertion that mandolins, and even guitars, are somehow not legitimate instruments in authentic old time music.

I hope I've encouraged the original poster to think that, yes, there is a place for mandolin (and guitar, and cello, and piano, and tenor banjo, and kazoo, and...) in old time music, and that there are plenty of recorded examples to learn from.

Yes Tom, there was some good advice given -- you are correct about that.

I have been interested in this topic for a long time and my opinion on the question is that really, it is impossible to make a mandolin literally "sound like a fiddle" .

On its face that is a tad silly idea given the total difference in sound and the way the sound is created on the two instruments -- (can you make a church bell sound like an police siren? .

(And, no I do not mean that the poster was silly to ask the question!)

BUT what you can do with a mandolin is to work on creating the "feel" of fiddle music with your timing and emphasis - which is what the poster was getting at.

I was not intending to be critical about the OT aspects -- just commenting on it -- its just a message board not an act of congress here so I'm sorry if I came off that way --its kind of humorous really.

I agree with you completely -- no one "owns" the term old tyme or old time music nor should they be attempting to tell others what is or is not old time and what instruments are or are not "allowed" IMO, that takes it from the relm of fun to something else. People can offer definations but no one owns the dictionary IMO.

Contrary to the comment made somewhere in this discussion I have heard Uncle Earl members call their music "old time" in a public TV interview no less -- and of course they use a mandolin in the band....