Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle???

[scgc.om]

This'll be my 1st post here: I'm getting seriously deep into OT music of late [not forsaking BG - just infatuated with OT these days!

I figured it was time to post a question that's been nagging at me for awhile . . . I figured people here would understand and be able to comment knowledgeably . . . !!

So here's what I'm on about: From my perspective so far, OT music is mainly about the Fiddle(s), secondarily (just behind) it's about frailing/clawhammer banjo. Guitar(s) are just for rhythm.

That's all that's required for an OT band, right?? A mandolin, if one chooses to show up, are supposed to just chop the off beat.

So here I am, getting totally into the OT scene with an instrument (mandolin) that really doesn't have a place in OT music!!

I try to make my mandolin playing sound like the fiddle line(s). But is this really even remotely possible?!?!?!! With all the nuances of the bowing, especially in cross tuning, I'm finding it a real struggle . . . . I've even thought of trying to learn fiddle -- BAD idea at 57+ yrs old !!

Right now I'm trying to work up "Back to Fielden" (Dirk Powell on Hand Me Down). Sure, when I play along to the CD, I can get a reasonable approximation . . . BUT when I turn off the CD player and listen to what I'm playing, it sounds like I showed up to the swim meet wearing a trenchcoat -- I just don't stand a chance!!

Anyone able to offer encouragement? Or do I just have to accept that a Mandolin is NOT an OT instrument . . . ?

All help appreciated.

[Tom C]

With old-time I do not think there would be any choppin'. Play the melody. Get software that slows down the recording and learn the tune. Don't noodle it.

[Bobbie Dier]

Mandolin does have a place in Old Time Music. Jim Watson proves that on these recordings. He really inspired me. I think his mandolin sounds awesome playing melody. If you have never heard any of these recordings you might want to buy a few of them (now available on CD) to get an idea of how good mandolin can sound in old time. They don't just play old time either,there is some celtic and swingy stuff and folk sounding stuff but it is all good.

http://www.originalredclayramblers.com/music.htm#RCR

[John Flynn]

I'd also recommend you listen to Curtis Buckhannon. He doesn't play fiddle, but he learned his mandolin style and the tunes he plays mostly from fiddle players and fiddle recordings. He does a great job of filling up the "space" that a fiddle usually fills. He has three recordings on the Cafe' MP3 page under the "Old-Time" tab and you can buy B. Brothers CDs here:
http://www.thebuckhannonbrothers.com/

[evanreilly]

Bill Monroe was an old-time fiddle player at heart. He just played it on the mandolin. Paraphrasing John Hartford.
Monroe's playing of old-time fiddle numbers incorporated lots of fiddle styling, especially the shuffles and double-stops.
Find some live recordings of Monroe going to town on tunes like 'Grey Eagle' and 'Paddy on the Turnpike'.

[Bruce Evans]

Play the melody. Get software that slows down the recording and learn the tune. Don't noodle it.

Sorry Tom, gotta disagree. OT is folk music, passed on aurally and there is no correct version. One of the things I enjoy about the different instruments in the hands of creative musicians is the variations they come up with - personal and instrument specific. Or perhaps I misunderstood your post.

scgc, play your mandolin and be proud. Don't try to make it sound like anything but a mandolin. Play lotsa double stop tremolos because that's what mandolins do. Heck, play some triple stops and let the fiddle player try to copy that!

[stevenmando]

I've even thought of trying to learn fiddle -- BAD idea at 57+ yrs old !! your never to old to learn new stuff Im 59 and thinking about learning fiddle and when it come to the mandolin in Old Time music yes the mandolin has a place it has a place in classical , Bluegrass,jazz it is what you put in to it to make it part of the music thats the magic of the mandolin ,there will be people that say that the mandolin has no place in old time music but when it just come,s down to it people like to just get togeather and play music have fun.

[Tom C]

Noodling vs improvisiing (or making variations) are very different. You need to be able to play the melody. period. If you can;t play the melody, you don't know the tune. If it doesn't sound like the tune, then it all sounds the same. Sure, one could play pentatonics over everything and be "technically" correct and be able to sit in on jams but I like to hear the melody in there.

[ApK]

Sorry Tom, gotta disagree. OT is folk music, passed on aurally and there is no correct version. One of the things I enjoy about the different instruments in the hands of creative musicians is the variations they come up with - personal and instrument specific. Or perhaps I misunderstood your post.

I'm with Tom. The old time way of learning a tune was to hear pappy play it over and over on the porch every Sunday. Listening to the recording is the closest thing most of us have to that.
In OT, isn't the object is to capture a specific kind of folk music and preserve it?

The true nature of folk music, as you say, learning them, making them your own, taking them from place to place and from culture to culture, is how folk music changes and evolves...how we got from OT to BG to Grunge rock.
That's great, but that's different.

That's not to say that you have to parrot the recording verbatim, but the idea is to learn the elements of that particular kind of folk music and improvise and adapt WITHIN that style.

ApK

[Fred Keller]

This topic comes up from time to time and I think at least part of the reason why is that nobody has yet come up with a definitive mandolin style of old time music. That's NOT to say there aren't some great mandolinists playing old time (Buckhannon, Kenny Hall, and others), just that--because the mandolin is relatively recent to old time--there isn't the same sort of clear role for the instrument as there is for the banjo or fiddle.

Keep in mind that the fiddle hasn't always been the top dog in old time music either. If you go back far enough it'll still be there but other instruments will have equal billing--harmonicas, banjolins, dulcimers, etc.

At least two of the approaches you can take are to 1. follow the fiddle and play leads or 2. follow the banjo and play more rhythmic accompaniment. Curtis Buckhannon certainly shows how to do the first and Linda Higginbotham on Brad Leftwich's instruction DVD shows how to do the second. Essentially she's playing the melody with chords and rhythm.

I tend to think that there's more to do and Mike Compton for me is a guy who shows what a mandolin-centric approach might look like. He doesn't make any bones about trying to play exactly like a fiddle. He lays out the tunes for his style and his instrument.

For example, there's nothing wrong with playing the melody of a tune while hitting three or four strings to fill up the sound and add a chorded rhythm element. Use your right hand for accents that the fiddle can't do. If the tune is too "notey" to play easily, eliminate a few notes (while still capturing the tune's essence) but add something with your right hand attack or drone strings. Basically, I try to find what the mandolin can do best and approach the tunes that way.

I always look to the fiddle and banjo for ideas about the soul of the tune but I try not to worry too much about imitating. Let the mando do what it does best.

[mandocrucian]

From my perspective so far, OT music is mainly about the Fiddle(s), secondarily (just behind) it's about frailing/clawhammer banjo.

That's pretty much the way I see it. The problem with playing old-time tunes on the mandolin is that more often than not it just comes out sounding bluegrass. So, to get away from that, you can either model your phrasing and pitch choices after the fiddle or the banjo. Or both. (There, are as has been noted, a few mandolin players who have a more OTM sound to their playing.)

I personally don't particularly care for the "every-note-with-a-pickstroke" sound. So, I use a lot of hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, to put more "breath" and lyricism into the tunes and their phrasing/dynamics. It might be a straight transfer of fiddle-bowings, or, it could be Clarence White "I Am A Pilgrim" type playing, but on mandolin. If you start to emulate the fiddle phrasing/bowings with slurs on the mandolin, you'll start to get closer to that sound. As I have said on the Cafe (and Comando before that)...How the notes are connected is just as important as the note choice.

I also started trying to adapt the across-the-strings patterns of clawhammer banjo on the mandolin. When I worked on a project with Larry Rice back in 81-82, he too was putting clawhammer banjo onto the mandolin; the only person I've ever run into that was. However, it should be noted that Andy Irvine of Planxty listened to a lot of old-time music and banjo and he also has developed his own effective across-the-strings banjoistic way of playing. I had noticed similarites between my adaptations of clawhammer bajo onto mandolin with the way Irvine played accompaniments.

There are clawhmammer mando arrangements (notation & talbature unless otherwise noted):
The Mandola Sampler: Andy Irvine style licks, "Old Man At The Mill", "The 8th of January" (tablature only)
Hot Solos For Bluegrass Mandolin: "Shady Grove"

Mandocrucian's Digest #4: "Cold Frosty Morning"
Mandocrucian's Digest #5: "Jake Gilley"
Mandocrucian's Digest #6: "Little Sadie"
Mandocrucian's Digest #11: "Dinah"

Clawhammer Mando On Recordings:
INTO THE FEVER RAIN - Jerry Rockwell & Niles Hokkanen: "Soldier's Joy"
COMANDO Vol. 1: "Over The Waterfall"
ON FIRE & READY! - Niles Hokkanen: "Little Sadie Revised"
LARRY RICE & NILES HOKKANEN: "Minor Forty-Niner" (Larry Rice playing clawhammer mando)

Out-of-print

For Old-time and Cajun fiddle transferred onto mandolin, Judy Hyman (The Horseflies) and Michael Doucet (Beausoleil) contributed instructional columns to MD

column: Old Time Fiddle Tunes For Mandolin (Judy Hyman)
Mandocrucian's Digest #6: "Flat Footed Henry"
Mandocrucian's Digest #7: "Jenny On The Railroad"
Mandocrucian's Digest #8: "Goin' Back To Israel"
Mandocrucian's Digest #9: "Benton's Dream"
Mandocrucian's Digest #10: "Sally Ann"
Mandocrucian's Digest #11: "Link Of Chain"

column: Cajun Mandolin (Michael Doucet)
Mandocrucian's Digest #6: "Acadian Two-Step"
Mandocrucian's Digest #7: "La Valse Des Jonglements"
Mandocrucian's Digest #8: "Jongle a moi"
Mandocrucian's Digest #9: (fiddle) shuffles
Mandocrucian's Digest #10: "Grand Mamou"

(Tommy Comeaux, also from the band Beasuoleil, took over the Cajun column, but he was a mandolin player/bassist rather than a fiddle player like Mike Doucet. column: Cajun Mandolin w/Tommy Comeaux: MD #'s: 13-15, 18-21, 23-24, 26)

Mandocrucian's Digest #14: Jim Watson interview w/"Shady Grove"
Mandocrucian's Digest #27: Andy Irvine interview w/"Ramblin' Robin"

Niles Hokkanen

[TomTyrrell]

<< So here's what I'm on about: From my perspective so far, OT music is mainly about the Fiddle(s), secondarily (just behind) it's about frailing/clawhammer banjo. Guitar(s) are just for rhythm. >>

Actually, guitars aren't a traditional part of Old Time dance music either. Fiddle and banjo. Fiddle plays the lead melody and banjo plays a combination of backup melody and rhythm. Usually a fiddle player and banjo player who played together all the time and were well rehearsed. This is where you heard the "fiddle tunes" played. No singing because it would interfere with the dance caller.

The other part of what we call Old Time was the parlor music (or porch music or kitchen music or whatever). That was played for entertainment and singing was common. Also common was every musical instrument anybody happened to own. Also bones and spoons and washboards and all that other stuff. Lots of smiling going on here!

If you are trying to fit the mandolin into OT dance music you need to be careful to avoid messing things up. The rhythm is the most important thing and you have to be sure you don't fill things up so much that the dance rhythm is lost.

If you want to play the mandolin in OT parlor music you just need to keep the basic feel in mind. Don't go too far from the melody. Don't wig out on the rhythm. Just fit in.

[Tom Smart]

Actually, guitars aren't a traditional part of Old Time dance music either. Fiddle and banjo.

Says who? Tradition is what people actually do, not something that happened at one time, in one place, forever frozen in amber.

Are we to define old-time music as consisting only of Round Peak tunes done exactly as Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham did them, except when they were accompanied by guitar or when Tommy was singing (and whenever those things happened, they were breaking the rules)? Were the scores of dances that I've played for all illegitimate because there was a guitar in the band?

You're on to something when you say that "old-time" encompasses both dance tunes and parlor music. Now add in Carter-style harmony singing, mandolin blues and rags, brother duets, unaccompanied ballads, unaccompanied fiddle airs, fife and drum bands, Mark Graham playing fiddle tunes on the harmonica, the Horseflies using a synthesizer, ... I could go on and on.

I can't think of any other genre that encompasses as much diversity as "old time." I'm comfortable applying the term "old time" to almost any music that shows a deep respect for and influence from older generations of musicians, no matter what combination of instruments they may have played.

[Fred Keller]

If it's only (or primarily) about the fiddle and banjo, then where exactly does the mando fit in? The OP posited whether to copy fiddle or banjo with the mandolin. I don't discount the importance of these instruments which certainly hold pride of place in old time, but as the music continues to grow, change and flex, shouldn't there be a unique role for the mandolin? I really don't know for sure; maybe the mando doesn't really have anything unique to offer oldtime.

Full disclosure dictates that I admit to an irrational reluctance to copying. Not proud, but there you have it.

I certainly don't have a definitive style to offer--still looking but haven't found it yet . My point is simply that you need to learn from the fiddle, the banjo (the harmonica, the whatever) but that shouldn't stop you from finding something unique to do with the instrument you're playing.

The music and its varied traditions should give you some guidance on how and what to play, not necessarily--or only--the other instruments.

[TomTyrrell]

Says who? Tradition is what people actually do, not something that happened at one time, in one place, forever frozen in amber.

Are we to define old-time music as consisting only of Round Peak tunes done exactly as Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham did them, except when they were accompanied by guitar or when Tommy was singing (and whenever those things happened, they were breaking the rules)? Were the scores of dances that I've played for all illegitimate because there was a guitar in the band?

You're on to something when you say that "old-time" encompasses both dance tunes and parlor music. Now add in Carter-style harmony singing, mandolin blues and rags, brother duets, unaccompanied ballads, unaccompanied fiddle airs, fife and drum bands, Mark Graham playing fiddle tunes on the harmonica, the Horseflies using a synthesizer, ... I could go on and on.

I can't think of any other genre that encompasses as much diversity as "old time." I'm comfortable applying the term "old time" to almost any music that shows a deep respect for and influence from older generations of musicians, no matter what combination of instruments they may have played.

I guess by your definition "Old Time" would also encompass Rap, Hip Hop and every other type of music that has ever happened. Or "Old Time" has absolutely no meaning at all. Same thing.

[Samjessin]

Tom - you live up to your last name don't you! Well said.

The Carter Family, for me, is one of the many definitions of old-time and they scarcely played a fiddle tune nor had a fiddle or a banjo.

To the OP, keep listening to music you enjoy and emulating what you find beautiful. You will soon find that mandolin has quite an important place in old-time music.

[woodwizard]

I think a mandolin works very well in Old Time music. When a mandolin is playing with the fiddle I don't know if the mandolin is sounding more like a fiddle or if the fiddle is sounding more like a mandolin. All I know is I kinda like that sound what ever it is. Old Time to me is a melody that everyone is playing most of the time and ofcourse Bluegrass has the individual breaks for each instrument. Just my 2 cents

[mandocrucian]

In every genre of music there is usually an alpha (or alphas) and beta instrument which will define that style of music more than any of the other instruments (excluding the vocals and style of vocal delivery) which may also be commonly found in that music (in a secondary or accompaniment role).

Old-time: fiddle, clawhammer banjo
Bluegrass: 5-string banjo, fiddle (sorry, but I think that these two are ultimately much more defining than mandolin.)
Cajun: fiddle, one-row accordion
Rock: electric guitar
Country blues: acoustic guitar
Chicago blues: harmonica, electric guitar, piano
Irish music: Uillean pipes, flute/whistle
Scottish trad.: Highland pipes, fiddle
Tex-Mex: 3-row accordion
New Orleans R&B: piano

Jazz: varies according to the various eras...dixieland, big band swing, bop, cool....gypsy swing, fusion

This isn't to say that the dominant instrument(s) will stay the same over time, or as sub-genres develop or divert.

100 years ago, Cajun music was completely Fiddle dominated...then in the 20's the accordions came in and grabbed a larger and larger role in the music, and changed it. (Part of this is because the limitations of the accordion in terms of available notes/keys, plus the fixed 12EqualTemperament pitches.)

An instrument can usually be added as a secondary to a genre's existing ecosystem without too much disruption and without radically altering the internal balance if what they play are within the conventional approach/vocabulary of the style. But, if that newer instrument is to effectively susbstitute for an alpha/beta instrument, they need to have absorbed a large amount of the vocabulary of either of those instruments. So, if you want a mandolin to sound "right" in Tex-Mex music, then it's a good idea to learn a lot of accordion solos note-for-note until you get a general idea of what the rules of the road are, and then you can let that (vocabulary, phrasing, etc) begin to adapt to instrument neck/tuning for greater ease of playing. Then, what you may be playing may note be quite what you'd hear on a 3-row, but still has that same feel.

NH

[Tom Smart]

Thanks, Sam. And your advice to listen and emulate is right on the mark.

Fortunately, there's tons of great old-time music featuring mandolin available to listen to. In addition to the resources given by Niles and others, I'd recommend the "Old Time Herald," where you'll find all kinds of CD reviews and other resources. Every issue will point you to more recordings featuring mandolin than most people could possibly afford.

And finally, to answer the original question, yes it's possible to make a mandolin sound quite a lot like a fiddle. Bill Monroe, for one, was brilliant in that regard. [Edit:] Niles is right: The key is to absorb as much fiddle music as possible and emulate the vocabulary.

[TomTyrrell]

Niles alluded to this. A very common OT fiddle sound is that Long-Short-Short shuffle they often use to kick off a tune and while playing the tune.

Emulate that on mandolin by picking with a D-DU stroke. When you need two notes on that first downstroke slide to the second note with your left hand but don't pick the second note. The slide will better emulate the violin sound than a hammer-on. Depending on what the third and fourth notes are (important to the melody or not important) you might do a double-stop on the DU. If you choose to do a full chord on the DU you will begin to sound more like the clawhammer banjo.

Either way will fit in well and not garner the wrath of the OT police.

[John McGann]

... and not garner the wrath of the OT police.

The President of the Universe of Music™ (A wholly owned subsidiary of Wal-Mart stores, Inc.) has decreed that all Music Police in all styles across the galaxy turn in their badges.

That means the
Punk Rock Police,
Anti-Diminished Chord Swat Team,
Goatee/Beret BeBop Commandos,
Effete Classical Elite Corps,
Chardonnay-Sippin' Singer Songwriter Sergant-at-Arms,
The Guy Who Tells You "You Aren't Crosspicking With Alternate Picking" Hazardous Waste Team, etc.
must report to the Hall of Self-Appointed Authorities and turn in their uniforms before midnight tonight.

New, generic civilian unitards shall replace previous garb. One size fits all!

The Prez has declared that in New Time Music, all music shall now be drone based (upon the drone pitch Ab), no chords allowed at all, and no 8th notes allowed (unless played as polyrhythms 5 against 2 and greater).

This Rule holds sway until 2016, at which time 12 Tone Serial Music will be allowed until 2023 and the next Universal General Election.

The resurgence of traditional oldtime and bluegrass has been postponed until 2059.

Please don't shoot, I am merely the messenger (doesn't pay that great, either)

[TomTyrrell]

I think somebody washed his hat.

[John McGann]

yeah, all that dirt kept me from thinkin' straight. Better now

[JeffD]

I took a week long workshop on OT mandolin a while back. The first thing we were told was that in OT music:

The fiddle and the banjo are it. The banjo provides everything the fiddle needs and the fiddle provides everything the banjo lacks. They are a perfect little OT machine. Now, you walk up with your mandolin - ask yourself - what are you going to add to this already perfect little machine?"

That being said, we learned what we can add - and it wasn't emulating either the fiddle and the banjo, it was in doing "mandolinny" things, like tremolo double stops and such.


The wonder of OT music (to me) is how much sophistication, complexity and subtlety goes into making it sound so simple and clean.

[TomTyrrell]

The fiddle and the banjo are it. The banjo provides everything the fiddle needs and the fiddle provides everything the banjo lacks. They are a perfect little OT machine.

That's the "dance music" part of Old Time. And it is ONE fiddle and ONE banjo. Pretty much eliminates the whole idea of an "Old Time" group jam playing "dance music".

The other part of Old Time was when everybody gathered together and played just for entertainment. In that context pretty much anything that could be considered a musical instrument might have been seen. You would probably have seen a large number of home-made "instruments" and very few store-bought instruments.