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Thread: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle???

  1. #26
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    This is a fascinating discussion, albeit some of the discussers are talking past each other.

    In western New York, a dance band of a 150 years ago was likely to be two fiddles, one "chording" (playing rhythmic double-stops) and the other playing the lead. A third instrument might well be a hammered dulcimer or a piano, and if there were to be "bass," likely a cello.

    Seventy-five years ago, a band playing exactly the same role -- community dances, local events -- would likely have had a fiddle, possibly a saxophone, an accordion, a tenor banjo, an amplified guitar, and often drums and bass fiddle.

    In either case, the ensemble would have played a mixture of traditional dance tunes (Opera Reel, Money Musk, Red Wing were big). The later group would have had a strong mixture of "singing" square dance calls, and would have added some "round dances" (non-figured waltzes, foxtrots etc.).

    The point is that what we're calling old-time is a sub-genre of traditional dance music, based in the mountain South mostly. In the Appalachians "fiddle and banjo [may have been] it," but in New England, fiddle and piano were more likely to be "it," and in Michigan and western New York, fiddle and hammered dulcimer could have been "it." (Henry Ford's Old-Time Dance Orchestra, based out of Michigan, had a fiddle, hammered dulcimer, piano and tuba).

    So where does mandolin "fit in"? Wherever you can make it fit. You can't make it sound exactly like a fiddle, and what's the point in trying? Nor is it just an inferior form of clawhammer banjo. Play to its strengths -- ability to combine melody and chords, fiddle-like range of pitch, percussive and tremolo potential -- and seek creativity rather than being a reflection of another instrument that will play its own role better than a mandolin could.

    Now, down off the soapbox...
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  2. #27

    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    You can either discuss "Old Time" in its generally accepted definition or you can choose to throw every type of music that happened way back when into the mix. At that point you need to stop calling it "Old Time" and find a different name for it because "Old Time" already has a meaning.

  3. #28
    Registered User ApK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Smart View Post
    Says who? Tradition is what people actually do, not something that happened at one time, in one place, forever frozen in amber.
    Huh? What dictionary do you use?
    Tradition is something that people USED to do and people CONTINUE to do...
    Folks are welcome to continue traditions, be influenced by traditions, break with traditions, or try to start new traditions (which you only know later when and if people continue to do it).
    If you're goal is to continue a tradition, then, yes, you darn well do need to do it, what ever the 'it' is you're claiming to honor, like they used to do, frozen in amber.
    Sometimes (like in the Navy) traditions can carry the force of law.

  4. #29
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Jeez, I thought the Bluegrass Police were strict...
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    Registered User ApK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Knowing what 'tradition' means is strict?

    What's knowing 2+2? Advanced calculus?

  6. #31
    Registered User Tom Smart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ApK View Post
    Tradition is something that people USED to do and people CONTINUE to do...
    If your goal is to continue a tradition, then, yes, you darn well do need to do it, what ever the 'it' is you're claiming to honor, like they used to do, frozen in amber.
    I agree with the first statement. But if it's a living tradition, it will continue to evolve as conditions change. Example: The fiddle found its way into the Southern Appalachians long before the banjo. When increasing migration and mobility eventually put banjos in the hands of white mountaineers, it didn't mark a change from the "tradition" of solo fiddle music to a different "tradition" of old-time fiddle and banjo music. It's all part of the same tradition, renewed and extended. Same thing when the guitar arrived still later.

    Recreating scenes frozen in amber isn't "tradition." It's "re-enactment."

    While I agree that fiddle-banjo can be a perfect little OT machine, I'll need some solid documentation before I'll accept the notion that it's the only valid configuration for an old-time dance band--or even that it's the predominant configuration. There's simply no evidence for that claim in the written, recorded or pictorial record. Yes, there's evidence of that pairing, but no, there's no evidence that it's the only way old-time music was or is performed.

    By the way, old-time music isn't just something they used to do way back when. It's something people continue to do today, possibly in even greater numbers--and certainly in more places around the world--than ever before.
    "Few noises are so disagreeable as the sound of the picking of a mandolin."

  7. #32
    Registered User ApK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    We probably shouldn't digress too much into a 'Traditions' discussion, unless we want to start a new thread, but I will say this here: I think 'reenactment' is better applied to doing something that isn't done any more. You certainly can (and most often do) uphold a tradition by doing something the same way it's been done. Historic reenactors don't wear those clothes day to day. The Navy dress blue uniform really does have button front, neck flap and bell bottoms. They are upholding that tradition, not reenacting.

    Keeping to the OP's context, I take your word on the realities of OT (I'm no expert on the genre, certainly). I think he's clearly trying to honor the traditions of a specific kind of OT. Fiddle and Banjo. There are certainly other traditions and broader traditions, but to the point of 'how do I honor THIS tradition with a mando' I understood answers of 'you can't' or 'here's how you can' but to say effectively 'do what you want, it's all good' seems to be avoiding the topic.

    ApK

  8. #33
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ApK View Post
    Knowing what 'tradition' means is strict?

    What's knowing 2+2? Advanced calculus?
    No, saying "you darn well do need to do it, what ever the 'it' is you're claiming to honor, like they used to do, frozen in amber... traditions can carry the force of law" is strict.

    Leaving aside the point I tried to make in my earlier post, that the "old time music tradition" means different things depending on what period and what geographic area you look at -- keeping any tradition "frozen in amber" means it's dead.

    Not to get all credentialed here, but I've spent the last 32 years re-enacting 19th century music at a restoration near Rochester -- costume, old instruments, looking up the old sheet music, the whole nine "rods" as the old-timers might have said. I've also worked with the state council on the arts auditing traditional music performances, planning events such as our local Fiddlers' Fair that showcase musical "tradition bearers," etc.

    It is definitely one thing to be re-enacting historic performance, where you do want the "frozen in amber" approach, and another to be playing tradition-based music in a contemporary setting. Even the folklorists and ethno-musicologists who make up the review panels for the traditional music events with which I'm involved, don't require that traditional musicians replicate the style, repertoire and context of the "older generation" from which they learned their music.

    Working with some of the older musicians (many of whom, like Alice Clemens, Mark Hamilton, Clarence Maher, Sid Whitney and Ken Bonner, have sadly passed on), I heard them play everything from 18th-century dance tunes, to waltzes they learned off the radio in 1947. And they added a fair number of pieces they wrote themselves. They were comfortable working with younger musicians playing electric guitars and basses, as much as with old-time piano players, tenor banjoists and my aluminum bass fiddle.

    No one could challenge these musicians' traditional credentials. They were a hell of a lot more open-minded and eclectic than some of the twenty-somethings I've heard insisting that "there's only one way to play."

    If I understood where this thread started, someone who was playing mandolin with other old-time players, was trying to puzzle out a good role for that instrument. I didn't hear anyone say, "Ah, just do whatever you want." I did hear people, myself included, say that there's no harm in being experimental and creative, recognizing the mandolin's strengths and limitations, until you find a comfortable spot. And I hope no one would say, "You have to do what Ted Hawkins did with the Skillet Lickers back in 1928; there's no other approach that's acceptable."
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  9. #34
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Yeah.....I play "country" music!

    answer:
    I do too. What country?

    Yeah.....Well....I play "old-time" music!

    Which century? "La Rotta" is a great old dance tune! (XIIIth century, if memory serves correct)



    You're just trying to confuse the issue....

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  10. #35
    Registered User ApK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    I understand and agree that you can follow in a tradition without having to duplicate things that were done at one time. I disagree that preserving a tradition by duplicating something necessarily makes it dead.
    I guess it depends what the tradition is. For example if you want to continue your family's 'tradition of fine craftsmanship' and your grandfather made handmade dulcimers, you can make composite tennis racquets, and as long as you make them well, still be keeping that tradition.
    If your family has a 'tradition of fine dulcimer making,' then as proud as grand-dad might be of your fine sporting goods, you are not upholding that tradition.

    >>Even the folklorists and ethno-musicologists who make up the review panels for the traditional music events with which I'm involved, don't require that traditional musicians replicate the style, repertoire and context of the "older generation" from which they learned their music.<<

    Do they require anything? I assume there are SOME elements of continuity expected, no?

    Speaking of police, I expect the thread-drift police to raid us any moment now if this keeps up. Should I start another thread, or are we all on the same page inasmuch as anyone cares?

    ApK

  11. #36

    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    "Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

    Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.

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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    I'm not sure I have ever heard of a word, let alone one that describes music, that has only one meaning. I'm intrigued.

    Oh, and thank you Mandocrucian for referencing one of my alltime favorite skits.
    Bobby Bill

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomTyrrell View Post
    "Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

    Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.
    Yes, to you it has one meaning. Evidently, others disagree.

    I played a bunch of old time tunes (and other things) with the American Café Orchestra, comprised of a few Americans (including Ruthie Dornfeld), plus a Finn and a Dane. I played mandolin and pedal steel. The album is called "Egyptian Dominoes" (Northeastern Records, now out of print). Ruthie is an amazing fiddler who plays a wealth of styles beautifully, including Old Time.

    We played what we want and how we wanted, whether the Music Police liked it or not (not that anyone complained!). After all, the Music Police probably weren't buying the CD or paying to get into the gigs- in fact, they seem to be too busy to practice, since they are so busy telling everyone else what not to do (and I am not just talking about Old Time Police, but also Punk rock et al as in my earlier post). Some of them are better writers than players- the ones that I have met and have given me attitude have never been more than barely competent players, especially in the Rock snob department.

    We didn't call ourselves an "Old Time" band, we called ourselves a band... it happened to be an international band that played a bunch of styles.

    If you really want to be purist about labels and categorizing music, "Old Time Music" would be a corruption of traditional Irish music, right? I don't believe that myself, but it would fit your definition, non? (If the Appalachian settlers brought their music over from Ireland, does anyone know whatever happened to the jigs? Seems like the reels made it over OK...)

    The real question should be "is it good music or not?" There's excellent Old Time music, and also the other kind, just like in any style.

    Seems to me the actual musicians who originated/formed the style(s) were open to lots of things, and not trying to bar the door against 'outside agitators'*.

    Just a thought.

    * See "The Graduate"
    Last edited by John McGann; Oct-27-2008 at 4:08pm.

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    Registered User Fred Keller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    "Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

    Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.
    Gotta disagree too. I live in Minnesota. Old Time music to the old timers up here is polkas, schottisches, Scandinavian and Eastern European traditions. These folks wouldn't know "Barlow Knife" if you stabbed them with one.

    As far as whether or not Old Time (in its more commonly accepted and widely known Southern form) is living tradition and should allow for change and adaptation or whether it must be played only one way...who cares? Those who believe it must be played according to a (usually narrowly defined) particular set of rules can do so. The majority of us will happily trot off in every direction imaginable ("Winder Slider"? "Nail That Catfish To A Tree" anyone?) and let the self-appointed arbiters pay to get into the concerts
    Lost on the trails of The Deep North

  15. #40

    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    It isn't my definition, the term has been in use since 1923. However, if words do not have a definition then they have no meaning at all. Why bother having titles on the forum sections if "Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex" means the same thing as "Jazz, Swing, Blues, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer, World"?

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Do you think "Jazz" has one definition? Would that be Herbie Hancock, or Louis Armstrong, or Allan Holdsworth, or Charlie Parker, or John Scofield, or Jazz Mandolin Project, or (insert 2500 great musicians here)?

    One, and one only? Perish the thought! Many words in the dictionary have many definitions.

    Did the music stop growing in 1923? Not according to the Horseflies, Chicken Chokers, Freight Hoppers, Uncle Earl, The Mammals, etc. etc... I don't think a face to face declaration of "you're not old time" would go over real well with those folks...not because they are trying to be anything other than what they are, but that musicians don't generally care for officious comments about what they live for.

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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Tex Mex


    The father and founder of the style known as TEX MEX was Santiago Jimenez Sr, father of Flaco and Santiago Jr.

    Santiago Sr played the 2 row NOT the 3 row accordion.

    It was not until the 50's that they style evolved to the 3 row. This was to make playing easier as there were notes on the inner row in the opposite direction that could reduce bellows action
    ( push pull) and not to add another key center as an example G C and GCF


    While Flaco plays the 3 row and is quite famous Santiago Jr continues to play the 2 row in the original style and IMNSHO Santiago blows the doors off Flaco. He is a much better musician than Flaco and he is a true traditionalist in the founding style of his father . Santiago does play the 3 row as well, again better than Flaco.

    The definition of "old Time Music" has confounded me for years, and still does. The "real" definition seems to change with the author. I have exstablished one must for me in the old time genre and that is ( please) no singing... ruins the music.


    Mandolin and old time. No reason to be excluded. I would suggest that somewhere at some time a mandolinist was playing what many of you refer to as old time. he just didn't know it wasn't legal.

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    I had the pleasure of hanging out w/ Santiago a couple of years ago when we both played the National Folk Festival in Richmond, Va. A great character and excellent musician!

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomTyrrell View Post
    "Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

    Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.
    Three comments:

    One: This thread has evolved into a discussion of what is and isn't Old Time. That's unfortunate, because I think the role of the mandolin is a much more interesting topic.

    Two: All genres of music have folks who seek to define the borders, and those who try to push the borders.

    Three: Nobody would agree to a definition of Old Time, that did not include the music to which Tom refers, above. But some, myself included, would expand that to include the Northern traditions, the fiddle music of the mid - western farming communities of the 20s & 30s, New England fiddle repertory, etc. There are many who, when referring narrowly to what Tom has defined, call it Southern Old Time, to distinguish it from Northern Old Time.

    Definitions are important. And so is their expansion and evolution.
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  20. #45
    Registered User evanreilly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Here is a live clip of a famous mandolin player playing my request for 'The Grey Eagle'. Listen to his introduction to the tune! http://theworld.com/~ereilly/greyeagle.mp3

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    I agree with Tom in that when one refers the genre "Old Time" it is referencing a specific music from a specific time and region. That isn't to say that new music isn't, or can't be written in that style. I think other regions, and/or cultures refer to the music of days gone by as old time music, but it isn't necessarily related to the genre.

    I say this because I have to constantly explain to people that Zydeco music is not Cajun music and vice versa. People inside the genre want clearly defined boundaries and those outside want to blur them.

    My grandfather used to say, "moi, j'aime la musique de vieux temps." Of course, the old time he was speaking of was the 60's when honky-tonk Cajun music became popular. Before that, old time Cajun music was fiddle, guitar and accordion. Before that, it was fiddles. None of it is anyway related to Old Time music, but still we call it that.
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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    The father and founder of the style known as TEX MEX was Santiago Jimenez Sr, father of Flaco and Santiago Jr.
    Not entirely. There was also Narcisco Martinez who was there, recording in the same region and time period, if not a little earlier, who deserves at least to share a co-founder status. (He played 2-row but later went to 3-row)

    Santiago Sr may have played the two-row, but the 3-row has been conjunto king for along time. There were a few conjunto guys that played 5-row chromatic accordion (same notes regardless of the bellows direction)

    (In Greek music) 6-string DAD bouzouki used to be the norm until Hiotis came along, and now it's predominantly the 8-string model.

    I've listened to Sr., Flaco and Santiago Jr., and Flaco has got the "something extra". I don't hear any comparison or any contest between Flaco and his bro. Flaco has got "it" (in the same sense that John Kirkpatrick or Tony MacMahon also have "it"!) (I've transcribed a bunch of Flaco stuff and put it onto mando, btw. Takes you all over the neck if you want to get closer to capturing some of the Flaco feel).

    Maybe the retro-traditionalists prefer Jr., but that's like cajun old-timers (earlier generation of cajuns, not SE Appalachian hillbilly music afficianados) who insist that Jimmy Breaux is a much better accordion player (cause he sticks to 1-row) than his brother Pat who also plays 3-row zydeco accordion and, (gasp) saxaphone, as well a 1-row. CajunPicker can probably comment further on this.

    (BTW, I played with both Pat and Jimmy on the Cajun Brew album)

    Not to say that Flaco doesn't have competition - Esteban 'Steve' Jordan is scary and really pushed the envelope

    Niles H

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    I also am an admirer of N. Martinez and have a few of his recordings.

    As a long time box player, and a listener for even longer, I appreciate many styles and configurations and my taste in the music is admittedly different than others.

    No doubt Flaco is a very good player, but to me.. Santiago Jr. has the "it" I am looking for.

    El Parche is my all time favorite Tex Mex/Conjunto/Jazz accordionist on the 3 row.
    Second would be the best unknown player, Augustin Carrerra of San Bernardino Calif.
    Way up there is Joel Guzman... worth checking out.

    There are still CBA players( 1st and 5th rows being repeats) and full on piano accordion players in the Tex Mex style.

    I recently saw Jimmy Breaux and he played several tunes on his Corona II. ( 3 row)

    For 1 row, and for my taste the best of the best are still the Irish or the Quebec players. For Cajun Iry LeJeune does it for me .

    For 3 row there is the Euro style of G/C/ accidentals and in this category there are many fine players both new and "old time" for their specific region, ethnicity, or style.

    As to Zydeco and Cajun, I like them both.

    I believe that a definite distinction between Cajun and Zydeco with respect to the accordion

    Cajun... I would say nearly 100 % one row
    Zydeco... 1 row, 2 row, 3 row, CBA, Piano accordion

    Long time admirer of Tony MacMahon... talk about a strict retro traditionalist.. he has to be the king... so much so he still plays D/D# as did Joe Cooley.

    I admire John Kirkpatric and one of the finest players around. I have lots of his recordings, He plays 1 row, 2 row 3 row B/C/C# also known as the British or Scottish chromatic similar to Jimmy Shand, , and the anglo concertina. I believe he also is in the category of retro traditionalist.
    While I admire Kirkpatrick..
    Last edited by Jeff Hildreth; Oct-27-2008 at 10:50pm. Reason: corrected information

  24. #49

    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    "Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

    Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that."

    I think everyone agrees that Riley Pucket was an Old Time musician by the strictest standard. He played rags like Hawkins Rag that sounded an awful lot like black string band rags. My question is this:
    1-Are the rags played by Hawkins and Pucket OT because it was made by people who fit the racial and cultural criteria and the black rags aren't because they don't-with no reguard for the aural qualities and similarities?

    It seems a lot like the early R&B vs. Rock dichotomy. Not much difference but race in the music. There were all sorts of OT/race records that got mixed up because people didn't know the skin color differences of the artists. To assume that Algo-Celtic music in the south existed ina vacuum or was remotely homogeneous seem to miss some of the historical realities.
    -1

  25. #50
    Purveyor of Sunshine sgarrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?

    Way too much pigeon holin' going on here. Just play good music and enjoy it. If the people you jam with don't like it, find others that do. As far as sounding like a fiddle....listen to Monroe and Compton play fiddle tunes. Also listen to John Hartford's old-time recordings and pay attentin to the way Compton blends with the ensemble. Also give a listen to Caleb Krauder (sp?) of the Foghorn String Band. If someone tells you that mandolin has no place in old-time music, they're likely folks you don't wanna be playin' with in the first place.

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