'Classical' tremolo?

[SincereCorgi]

Hi everybody. So here's my situation: I come to the mandolin from a very 'classical' music background in which there are very well-defined schools of thought with regard to various aspects of technique. This does not appear to be the case with mandolin, I am discovering to my frustration, and was hoping to get other opinions. Let me lay out some background....

In America, as far as I can tell, the mandolin still seems to be in the 'dark ages' with regard to any sort of systematic methods. The best book I have found from a classical standpoint is Bickford, who takes pains to lead the student gradually from absolute ignorance toward mastery by means of graduated exercises specifically designed to highlight various aspects of technique. His book is slow-going (and occasionally redundant) but has the virtue of being -- for the most part -- extremely specific and verbose.

By contrast, most of the American mandolin methods currently in print operate on the assumption that you want to play bluegrass or old-time music (fair enough), but provide very little meat for people who want to play more than, say, fiddle tunes. Some of the 'technique' books don't even get past D or G major, which I'm sure strikes anybody with a classical background as ridiculous.

The 'Complete Mandolinist' from Marilyn Mair -- while very, very laudable as a step in the right direction for American mandolin-ism -- I have found frustrating. The book feels like a grab-bag of bowdlerized violin exercises, scales patterns, occasional bits of Pettine (which are excellent), picking etudes, and little pieces in a variety of styles. The exercises are often good, but very poorly graduated in terms of difficulty- many of the earliest exercises have specific difficulties in terms of string crossing and other technical issues which ought to have been addressed in their own etudes. As it is, you're left to figure out too much on your own.

I realize that these books are probably intended to be used with a teacher who could address these difficulties, but this doesn't excuse the fact that they're not what they could be. Plenty of other instruments have their 'bibles' - Arban's for trumpet, Klosé for clarinet, etc -- that lay out a systematic study of their instrument's technique in a very thorough fashion.

This is especially frustrating when it comes to tremolo. The tremolo I've arrived at is fairly smooth and fast- I use Mair's suggestion of 8 strokes to the quarter note in combination with Bickford's system of when to end held notes on an upstroke and treat slurs. I realize that these techniques are subject to taste and interpretation when it comes to actual music, but it seems like there should be some ground rules for how to approach various situations. As it is, I can't imagine using the 8-strokes-to-the-quarter-note tremolo at tempos much faster than, say, 84, at which speed it already sounds uncomfortably like a power tool. Any slower than that and there's that blurry line between whether you're doing tremolo or just sixteenth notes. More to the point, Bickford's advice of ending on an upstroke only seems to work if you're playing faster than sixteenths- people familiar with the method might see what I'm talking about.

I know that all of this presumes that measured tremolo is the only option, which might be the cause of all my problems. However, on recordings it seems like European mandolinists use measured tremolo tastefully to excellent effect. Are there european methods that address these issues in a more systematic fashion? The playing of Dorina Frati has been most impressive to me in this regard- she has a perfect, purring tremolo and unbelievably clean trills.

Okay, that was a lot more verbose than it needed to be, but I just wanted to toss out some food for thought and see what other players think. Presently I'm using Bickford/Mair for tremolo in conjunction with various classic violin methods (Schradiek, Wohlfahrt, etc) for finger dexterity and it seems to be helping my achieve pretty decent progress. So, does anyone have any other method books they recommend or conceptions about how to approach tremolo?

Thanks, Trevor

[angelouself]

Well I'm a student of Dorina Frati, and yeah, she does use measured tremolo.

Before I started studying with her, I used to move my right arm (from the elbow) in order to play; I had a very fast unmeasured tremolo. The problem was that when I had to switch from tremolo to sixteenth notes and faster, it could become a bit messy, since I would have to switch from irregular to regular and very precise.

After discussing with her the pros and cons of our techniques, that were different, I decided to adopt hers (using only the right hand's wrist). I must say that my tremolo isn't as fast and sparkling as it used to be, however the quality of the sound, the control, precision on every movement allowing me to insert notes in my tremolo (therefore sounding even faster) paid off.

As for a method to study, unlike most of other instruments like you named, that have their "bibles", the study of the mandolin has always been... different. In fact technique has always been an issue in our instrument, all different "mandolin schools" think differently.

If you get bored from doing only exercises, and scales, I'd suggest you pick some musics that fit your current difficulty level. Not all methods are that boring (Branzoli if you're starting, Calace Vol.I and II after, C. Munier). Some exercises you just won't find in the usual mandolin technique books (like the usual keys being C, G, D ). In order to study different positions, double-stops, different keys and in a way develop your technique further, I would recommend trying some violin exercises, Dont, Kreutzer, Fiorillo. The purists might think it's just wrong to play violin musics on the mandolin; it's totally up to you. However the technical level you can achieve from studying violin exercises, well... those who are considered nowadays the greatest mandolin virtuosos (at least the dead ones ), they all used violin musics in order to improve their skills on the mandolin.

[mandopops]

I took lessons from Giovanni Vicari when I lived in New York City. He had me using Bickford Vol.I & II. I had been playing before I took lessons from him & was not a reader. So this took me back to basics and then on. I agree that it's a good method. Good tremolo work outs.
In tandem w/ Bickford we worked on a Dancla book of Violin Mechanics. So it was a mix of Mandolin & Violin Studies. We also worked from another Mandolin method that he just had Xerox copies of. It was for reading in different positions.
Mr. Vicari would often be making notations on the pages of all these books changing pick directions, fingering, or positions to what he thought was best. Great experience.

[vkioulaphides]

Hello, Trevor.

Welcome to our forum. I don't believe you and I have ever corresponded in the past. "New blood", as it were, is the lifeline of our discussions and, of course, the mandolin altogether.

While I hasten to disclaim that I am not even 0.00000000000000000001% the mandolinist that Fabio (and, presumably, Trevor) is, I must say that I have a always used violin-specific pedagogical materials. It is especially convenient for me to do so, as my daughter plays the violin, and thus our home is infested with violin music.

The first mandolin method I ever owned --having been previously a shameless, self-taught hack-- is the "six-in-one" Calace method. Needless to say, my limited abilities take me through the earlier volumes, rather than the later ones; I find Vol. II particularly useful and salient to the actual repertoire. I also like Lo Scioglidita, although that is not strictly a method but a wonderfully thorough series of technical studies.

As regards tremolo, my own practice is to "gear down" to 6-stroke (from 8-stroke) when the tempo gets too fast; ipso facto, I "gear up" as the tempo slows down. So, in short: always measured, but in freely adjustable sextuplets vs sixteenths. I do NOT claim, however, to be any "authority" on the matter, but simply report what my own, personal practice is.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Victor

[Acquavella]

Dear Trevor,

I feel your frustration just as I felt the same way before I went to study in England. The fact is, we (America) are still very behind the times in regards to proper classical technique, methods and general knowledge of repertoire. The reason that most method books are based around bluegrass is simply because that's what the main market will purchase. This is quite a different story in Germany, England and other parts of Europe.....which is where you will need to shop for your music and method & etude materials. I am a believer that the original method books are always the best. For baroque technique, I recommend looking at Pietro Denis, Leoni of Naples or Foucchetti. For romantic era, I recommend Calace Methods (to learn advanced technique), Ranieri (for righthand technique & sight reading) and Munier (for etudes & a good workout). Contemporary material is a little harder as you will need to make a decision as to which school you want to learn. There are basically two schools of thought...German & Italian. A good starting point is Marga Wilden Husen, Gertrude Troester (Weyhoven) or Wolki (personal choice). However, my personal belief, is that a good MUSICIAN should be able to do both schools well. An expressive tremolo is one that can chop & change speeds while bluring the lines between rhythm changes. There are times you will have to have a measured tremolo (duo style for instance) and there are other times when it should be a bit more free. I recommend that you research various non-american methods and studies mentioned above....all of which can be found at www.trekel.de. I also recommend that you check out www.astute-music.com. Ranieri, Calace & Munier are as close as you will get to the mandolin's "bible". Good luck.

[Jim Garber]

Trevor, where in the world are you... I mean geographically. I think that you have gotten much good advice on this thread. As for cobbling together pieces from violin methods, correct me if I am mistaken, but I think most methods do draw on earlier tutors, even violin methods, which, as you note, is not necessarily a bad thing as long as it makes sense to the instrument you are playing.

What you don't mention is whether you are working with a teacher or not -- it sounds like you are not. I am surprised that you come from a "very classical" background and yet would attempt to play this instrument without the aid of a teacher. Perhaps there is no one living near to you. If so, if you are in either Eastern US, I would suggest coming to New York in March for a lesson or two and to participate in the workshop with Carlo Aonzo. He also has a weeklo9ng workshop in the fall (this year in Switzerland), if you are in Europe. More info here.

[SincereCorgi]

Thanks very much for the good advice, everyone. Reading over my original post, it's a little more of a rant than I intended: I didn't intend to knock bluegrass or any contemporary mandolin methods (even if they claim to be... [cough cough]... "complete"). It sounds like everybody feels pretty good about the Calace method, so I guess that should be the next thing on my shopping list.

Jim: I'm in the Bay Area, on the left coast. No, I'm not working with a teacher. I wish that were the case. The only sort-of-local teacher I can find that teaches classical mandolin charges much more than I can afford and (my schedule and the gas prices being what they are) I couldn't manage the commute anyway. I don't want to take from a bluegrass teacher- I'm not knocking bluegrass, I just don't like that aesthetic very much.

Yes, it does rub me the wrong way to be learning an instrument without private instruction. Bickford himself stresses that I should, optimally, be taking lessons twice a week. I just can't swing that right now, though, however 'classical' my ideas of music pedagogy. However, I've got a lot of other music training (I majored in clarinet performance/composition in college) and figure that it's better to enjoy the mandolin now despite the pitfalls of self-instruction than to let it sit on the shelf until I can 'do it properly'. Yes, I know that at some point I'll probably take a lesson and they'll tell me I'm holding it upside down with the wrong part of my mouth or something.

[Arto]

I think there are two sources for the Calace method: Trekel in Germany for the 4-part German translation (does not include the two last parts), and the original work in Italian and French from the Calace workshop (www.calace.it). I´ve seen here mentioned many times that the latter is difficult to contact via e-mail, but responds well to fax. I don´t know either personally, but a German mandolinist mentioned me that German edition contains errors (I don´t know whether they are in sheet music or translation). If you are eager to get "to the source", maybe you should get the Italian one.

Pettine method has not been mentioned here and I don´t know about its availability, but many people appreciate it, and it is very through and IMHO logical, too. I have it but have never had self-discipline enough to study it beyond the third part with any regularity. The Duo Primer part is nice.

best wishes, Arto

[Jim Garber]

Hi Trevor:
Both Carlo Aonzo (Savona, Italy) and Joe Brent (New York) will be offering online live video lessons. For a free download of Skype and a webcam it could be one solution.

I know there is a big Italian music scene in SF but I don't know how many strictly classical teachers there are there. I suppose, tho that if money bis the problem then you are certainly better off working on your own.

[vkioulaphides]

I got my copy of Calace's six-in-one method (in the low-quality, photostatic edition by the family business) from Raffaele Jr himself; yes, he was slow to reply to my original e-mail, but thoroughly pleasant all the same, and MOST accommodating. In fact, I got such a good feeling from dealing with this Neapolitan gentleman that, about a year-or-so later, I even ordered... a MANDOLIN from him!

Having been the "broker" in this other scenario, I would enthusiastically second Jim's (username: jgarber) suggestion that you seek expert training from Joseph Brent, newly appointed mandolin faculty at the Extension Division of Mannes College (The New School for Music). Joe not only offers the usual, in person lessons, but also online, via Skype. Please follow the appropriate links: The New School > Mannes College > Extension Division. The (Division's) Director is my friend David Tcimpidis, who can also be contacted at (212) 580-0210, Ext. 4825. If you wish, I would be happy to walk you through the process, as I am an officer of that same institution myself.

Best of luck!

Cheers,

Victor

[vkioulaphides]

For a direct link: http://www.newschool.edu/Mannes/subpage.aspx?id=2816

[margora]

I would second the various comments on the methods but I would also put in a strong plug for the modern German material mentioned which I used to learn (without, I note, a teacher, see below) and which is very efficient (being German). I'd also strongly suggest getting copies of Gertrud Troster's (now Weyhofen's) two volume video which should still be available from Best Music Source (go to ebay and search on Best Music Source). The Pettine is occasionally available on Ebay and there are other ways to get it BUT you will pay ca $100 for the complete method (and the separate volumes are not available separately). And the music in it is extremely old-fashioned (as best).

Re: teacher. Although it is true that, on average, having a teacher is better than not, it is perfectly possible to learn to play well without one. However, the fact that mandolin technique varies significantly across different "schools" makes the choice more daunting than it would otherwise be. Someone who studies with Carlo will have a very different right hand from someone who studies with Gertrud from someone who studies with Marilyn from someone who studies with Alex Timmerman. I have a personal preference for the Germans only because (a) it worked for me (b) the Germans have a very good track record at replicating (but so does Alex, for that matter). The good news is that, in the end, it won't matter very much.

I also suggest you get a copy of Keith Harris' recent book, "The Mandolin Game" (available in English from www.trekel.de). Slow going because it is about the micro-mechanics of playing but very thoughtful and effective.


Re: teacher. Although it is, of course true that having a teacher is, on average, better than not, the lack of uniformity in mandolin technique

[Jim Garber]

It looks like your posting was cut off in the middle, Bob.

[Ken Olmstead]

Wow, we are not in Kansas any more! I just happened onto this thread the other day and am astounded at how many learning materials are found off the beaten path. I still like Mair's book but it does over look a critical element in my point of view for the "complete" mandolinist and that is chords. However, I am intrigued by the materials listed here and will research further. I am delving into a bit of classical and Klezmer now and I am refining my technique and furthering my sight reading skills. I sure love the journey! Thanks!!