Purchasing a bandolim or cavaquinho?

[nickster60]

My browser would let me copy the link it is having a cow lately. It looks like the round one and listed as a mandolin it looks like a decent instrument. Sorry about the link but for $225.00 it may worth a look and it has been on there for a long time.

Correction it is done have its cow
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee/msg/1929501811.html

[Jim Garber]

Yes, and getting back to the topic at hand... I was talked out of buying a good quality bandolim by a wise denizen of this thread. First off I don't have anyone to play choro and second, I can certainly play a std mandolin of which I have quite a few and third, should I ever get deep into, I suppose I can find one somewhere or order one. of course, there is always endless MAS and the need for yet one more different sound....

[Jim Garber]

My browser would let me copy the link it is having a cow lately. It looks like the round one and listed as a mandolin it looks like a decent instrument. Sorry about the link but for $225.00 it may worth a look and it has been on there for a long time.

Correction it is done have its cow
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee/msg/1929501811.html

It looks like a German or eastern European made Portuguese style instrument. Might not be Brazilian. It might be worth $225.

This eBay mandolin looks very similar from the front. Someone wrote to the seller that it was German-made from the 1903s. The back on the CL one looks much nicer and the price is much, much nicer. However, this confirms that this is not a bandolim in a Brazilian sense.

[Jim Garber]

This looks like a pretty good deal. Someone stop me . . . please . . .!

Brad (or anyone else) did you buy that beauty of a Batista on Elderly? I had it tabbed on my browser for days and today it finally said "no longer available."

[lusophile]

Among budget-priced cavaquinhos, is Giannini supposed to be better than Marques, or vice versa? There's a new Marques Paulistinho TMC 0817 with rosewood back and sides and cedar neck. Handmade, the ad says. $249 + shipping. At Amazon there's a Giannini GCSM 4 with Imbuia back and sides and cedar neck. $229 + shipping.

I did find a Brazilian web site that offers the Marques for 328 reais, which converts to $214US. Of course I'd have to pay shipping and duties. But if I found one of these in a US shop, wouldn't I pay much more than that?

I'm thinking I'd be more comfortable with the Marques from eBay, unless someone warns me that Marques is like the Sears Silvertone of cavaquinhos.

TIA for any thoughts on this.

[Baskervils]

Among budget-priced cavaquinhos, is Giannini supposed to be better than Marques, or vice versa? There's a new Marques Paulistinho TMC 0817 with rosewood back and sides and cedar neck. Handmade, the ad says. $249 + shipping. At Amazon there's a Giannini GCSM 4 with Imbuia back and sides and cedar neck. $229 + shipping.

I did find a Brazilian web site that offers the Marques for 328 reais, which converts to $214US. Of course I'd have to pay shipping and duties. But if I found one of these in a US shop, wouldn't I pay much more than that?

I'm thinking I'd be more comfortable with the Marques from eBay, unless someone warns me that Marques is like the Sears Silvertone of cavaquinhos.

TIA for any thoughts on this.

I have never played the Marques. I have the student model Giannini Cavaquinho GCSM and it's decent. I bought it on Amazon last month. The intonation is good. I purchased the EL version that has built in pick up and tuner. I compare it favorably to a good Yamaha student model guitar. It's not like owning a Martin pro guitar, but for a cheap instrument, it plays well and stays in tune.

I also have the hand built Giannini GM10, which is awesome. It has a stunning tone and was a steal at $650 when I bought it. It was worth the $$$ any day of the week. That one has a rosewood back and sides. It smells amazing, too. Rosewood is like love potion.

[Jim Garber]

I just received this "bandolim kit" in the mail today. It is marked from a well-known music store in Rio, Casa Oliveira. It looks like it was a little more than a tourist model -- looks like decent quality -- no laminates, as far as I can tell. The neck is nice mahogany and finished quite nicely and the spruce(?) top wood also looks like in perfect shape. The tuner buttons are gone but I actually have a set that will fit or I can replace the buttons. There are some nice details such as herringbone binding around the edge and some decorative lining the fretboard and the headstock.It also has a nice bone bridge. The worst part is the back which has multiple cracks and one half is split off altogether. OTOH it looks like beautiful Brazilian rosewood and would not be so hard to fix esp since it is pretty much apart already.

I was trying to see if there was a way to get in touch with someone at that store which evidently still is in business and find out something about this bandolim. In any case, I know it is prob no Batista or Ribiero but might be a decent starter instrument.

[Doug Hoople]

So now all I need is the Portuguese word for "cello".

I guess more interesting would be what exactly the role of the bandola player was in choro - simply a lower pitched bandolim? I'm trying to imagine what that would sound like.

Sorry, I'm late to the conversation.

I don't believe that there is any such thing as a "bandocello" in common use in Brazil. Even the bandola is relatively uncommon, although the C string is definitely on its way back with the resurgence of 10-stringed bandolins.

A couple of thing come to mind.

1) The tenor guitar seems to occupy the slot that we normally associate with octave mandolin and mandocello, although to completely different effect. The tenor guitar is, for those who don't know, essentially an octave mandolin with single-string courses. Jacob himself played violão tenor, most notably on 'A Ginga do Mané,' and there's a small, but dedicated following for the instrument, both in Brazil and around the world.

2) Mike turned Hamilton on to the octave mandolin a few years back, and loaned or gave him a Flatiron to take home to Brazil. Hamilton hadn't had a whole lot of exposure to lower-register mandolins, but he loved it. A couple of years later, when visiting Tercio Ribeiro's workshop in Rio in 2008, we got to see and play the newly-completed custom octave mandolin that Tercio had built for Hamilton on commission. We were really lucky in our timing. A week earlier, and it wouldn't have been ready to play. A day or two later, and it wouldn't have been there. I think Hamilton was supposed to pick it up the next day. A beautiful instrument with a really lovely sound.

I'm pretty sure that even the octave mandolin is an extreme rarity in Brazil, and that mandocellos are an almost complete unknown.

btw, a cavaco and a cavaquinho are one and the same thing. The "quinho" is an affectionate diminutive, and means absolutely nothing. A cavaquinho is not, for example, a delightfully cute little cavaco. It's a little like choro and chorinho. From what I can tell, there's not an ounce of difference.

[delsbrother]

1) The tenor guitar seems to occupy the slot that we normally associate with octave mandolin and mandocello, although to completely different effect. The tenor guitar is, for those who don't know, essentially an octave mandolin with single-string courses. Jacob himself played violão tenor, most notably on 'A Ginga do Mané,' and there's a small, but dedicated following for the instrument, both in Brazil and around the world.

Thanks for the input, Doug! So are you saying the violão tenor as played in Brazil is tuned GDAE and not CGDA? I have searched in vain for a method book (supposedly) written by Garoto and I was under the impression it was written in CGDA. I've seen the cover, and it says it's also appropriate for "F Banjo" which I'm assuming is Frevo, or perhaps Forro?

(sorry for hijack of a hijack)

[Doug Hoople]

Thanks for the input, Doug! So are you saying the violão tenor as played in Brazil is tuned GDAE and not CGDA? I have searched in vain for a method book (supposedly) written by Garoto and I was under the impression it was written in CGDA. I've seen the cover, and it says it's also appropriate for "F Banjo" which I'm assuming is Frevo, or perhaps Forro?

(sorry for hijack of a hijack)

Very good question, Darrell. You'd know better than I would. I just spotted a thread on the topic you chimed in on in 2005!

I always assumed that, because of the scale length (similar to guitar and octave mando), that it would be GDAE, but that could be wrong. CGDA seems to be more common in general, and your Garoto book would suggest that it was common enough. Changing string gauge can do a lot to make things workable, so it's hard to say.

Obviously, there's an answer to this question, and that is to listen to a couple recordings. Listening for range and for open strings should provide definitive answers. If I were home, I'd be on it, but I'll have to wait until later in the day.

[delsbrother]

LOL, yeah, I know most of these questions would be answered very easily by just playing and listening instead of endlessly trolling the 'net... Well, that and the fact that 9 times out of ten I'm posting from somewhere other than where my instruments are..

[Baskervils]

LOL, yeah, I know most of these questions would be answered very easily by just playing and listening instead of endlessly trolling the 'net... Well, that and the fact that 9 times out of ten I'm posting from somewhere other than where my instruments are..

I live in New York City, which has a big Brazilian population, and as far as I know, there is no place to try out a cavaquinho or bandolim in the city. Even if there were, you'd probably have one brand to chose from.

Maybe some of the charm behind the instrument is that it feels unusual, rare or special in North America.

[Jim Garber]

In a quest to find more information about my Casa Oliveira bandolim, I found this Brazilian bandolim site. For those who want to venture into the mostly Portuguese forum it could be interesting. I did find a few folks who do speak English and used Google Translation otherwise. I may explore it some more. For some reason, Translation works nicely on the PC asking me if I want to translate the whole site into English, but i can't figure out how to do it on my Mac at home.

[Michael Wolf]

I always assumed that, because of the scale length (similar to guitar and octave mando), that it would be GDAE, but that could be wrong. CGDA seems to be more common in general, and your Garoto book would suggest that it was common enough. Changing string gauge can do a lot to make things workable, so it's hard to say.

Obviously, there's an answer to this question, and that is to listen to a couple recordings. Listening for range and for open strings should provide definitive answers. If I were home, I'd be on it, but I'll have to wait until later in the day.

The tenor guitar in Brazil is indeed always tuned in CGDA and they have a shorter scale than the classical tenors. The resos from Delveccio seem to have a scale around 52cm and the nylon string tenors are often even shorter.

[Doug Hoople]

The tenor guitar in Brazil is indeed always tuned in CGDA and they have a shorter scale than the classical tenors. The resos from Delveccio seem to have a scale around 52cm and the nylon string tenors are often even shorter.

Thanks, Michael, for chiming in. I thought you might.

Just doing the math, 52cm is about 20-1/2 inches. Most mandolas are around 16 inches, for an idea of how the scales compare. Interesting.

[Doug Hoople]

I live in New York City, which has a big Brazilian population, and as far as I know, there is no place to try out a cavaquinho or bandolim in the city. Even if there were, you'd probably have one brand to chose from.

Maybe some of the charm behind the instrument is that it feels unusual, rare or special in North America.

In Brazil, where the music shops are filled with these instruments, they still have the power to charm. It's the unique way they're played that makes them interesting and compelling.

The cavaquinho is thought to be a rhythm instrument, much more than as a harmony instrument, which is a really interesting concept that hits you right in the gut as soon as you hear someone playing like that.

And, in the right hands, the bandolim just sings in a very elastic way that other mandolins struggle to reproduce.

[Al Bergstein]

Wow. the longest thread in a while? Baskervils: you have to listen to a bandolim in the hands of a pro, to really understand the difference. It's not really what I would call 'charm'. It's like saying a spanish style nylon string is like a Martin used for bluegrass. It's a very different animal. Tone is different, more brilliant, almost a harsh tone even with an older instrument, very different than a Loar like instrument, and more like a teens A model Gibson than what they designed for Apollon. But they obviously designed it to be heard above a lot of racket (read banjos for us, but remember that Choro incorporates horns and tambourine like instruments). These mandolins are *loud*. Though when built with fine rosewood, like mine is, they are as complex a sound as any high end F. And many of the Brazilian players play it differently. Strings that are more like a rubber band than the heavy bluegrass strings. Some play lighter picks for what they call a "dirtier" sound. The way they attack the strings is different, with a much more finger tip oriented approach (a classical style origin rather than folk?) to the tremolo. At least these are the differences I've seen, as a middling amateur coming from the bluegrass beginnings. Maybe Bruce or someone who is a long time player of many styles could clarify my limited vocabulary.

So no, I would have to disagree. It's not just that they are 'charming' and unusual. They bring a new voice to the music here in North America. To me, the ability to shift away from banjos and bluegrass and add horns, pandeiros, flutes, clarinets, sax, etc, is really exciting. If anything is 'charming' it's the music, rather than the instrument. Sort of like jazz players playing Dixieland. Not modern, but really swings, and is fun. That's why I play it.

[Baskervils]

Wow. the longest thread in a while? Baskervils: you have to listen to a bandolim in the hands of a pro, to really understand the difference. It's not really what I would call 'charm'. It's like saying a spanish style nylon string is like a Martin used for bluegrass. It's a very different animal. Tone is different, more brilliant, almost a harsh tone even with an older instrument, very different than a Loar like instrument, and more like a teens A model Gibson than what they designed for Apollon. But they obviously designed it to be heard above a lot of racket (read banjos for us, but remember that Choro incorporates horns and tambourine like instruments). These mandolins are *loud*. Though when built with fine rosewood, like mine is, they are as complex a sound as any high end F. And many of the Brazilian players play it differently. Strings that are more like a rubber band than the heavy bluegrass strings. Some play lighter picks for what they call a "dirtier" sound. The way they attack the strings is different, with a much more finger tip oriented approach (a classical style origin rather than folk?) to the tremolo. At least these are the differences I've seen, as a middling amateur coming from the bluegrass beginnings. Maybe Bruce or someone who is a long time player of many styles could clarify my limited vocabulary.

So no, I would have to disagree. It's not just that they are 'charming' and unusual. They bring a new voice to the music here in North America. To me, the ability to shift away from banjos and bluegrass and add horns, pandeiros, flutes, clarinets, sax, etc, is really exciting. If anything is 'charming' it's the music, rather than the instrument. Sort of like jazz players playing Dixieland. Not modern, but really swings, and is fun. That's why I play it.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with from my post. I'm not sure that you read it carefully. I PLAY the cavaquinho, not the bandolim.

My point was, there aren't stores in the US where you can try them out. They are difficult to find in the US, which adds to their charm and allure. Charming isn't a bad thing. It certainly doesn't make them any less of a "real" instrument.

[Al Bergstein]

Posts are such an incomplete method of communications. No slam meant. Charming means many different things to many different people.

[John Eubanks]

To Alb
very well said. As I move from playing mandolin to bandolim almost exclusively, I am finding that the tone of the bandolim is as complex as my high end f models and the response is like that of a teens gibson. As I am getting used to this instrument, about 6 months in, I am not sure what tercio Ribeiro has created but I feel the instrument is going to develop a unique voice that seems to really suit me and my playing style as well as anything I have tried. I am playing a lot of bach trying to pay close attention to not only pulling the tone out of the instrument in a classical way but trying to get the deep background sound to match what chris or mike are getting while using a pointed medium pick. I will play Pupville or Old Ebenezer to try to get the down pressure I am playing with to be the same. NOLA or any Jethro Burns sounds great on the bandolim. I don't know how much this has to do with purchasing a bandolim but I am happy to be traveling the road this instrument taking me on.

[Doug Hoople]

My use of the word "charm" was meant to imply "enchant." And, I have to say, I find the sound of the bandolim played well enchanting and inimitable.

For my part, it was increasing familiarity with bandolins that led me to finally acquire one. And, contrary to the novelty aspect of it, the bandolim grew on me slowly from a poor start.

When I first heard it, my first impression was that it was thin and inadequate, that choro was inspiring in spite of, not because of, the bandolim. In short, I didn't care much for it. Frankly, I also didn't get Jacob right away... I thought his sound was harsh and edgy, and that his sense of time was not his strong suit (I'm describing honest first reactions here, and cringing as I write!!)

What a difference a few years make. Only upon really getting to know the bandolim and listening to thousands of hours of choro did I actually get it. Okay, so I'm a little slow, but it hit me like a ton of bricks when it finally did hit me.

So it wasn't the novelty or the rarity of these instruments that drew me to them. It took a long-developing familiarity with Brazilian instruments, an acceptance of them as the norm and not the exception. That, and falling in love with choro and Brazilian music in general, led me to see how irreproducible it is without them. That's what made playing a bandolim so essential for me.

[hhold]

Speaking of Bandolims, does anyone know who made Eva Scow's?

[Jim Garber]

Looks like a Batista but someone else might actually know for sure.

[Michael Wolf]

....When I first heard it, my first impression was that it was thin and inadequate, that choro was inspiring in spite of, not because of, the bandolim....

...What a difference a few years make. Only upon really getting to know the bandolim and listening to thousands of hours of choro did I actually get it. Okay, so I'm a little slow, but it hit me like a ton of bricks when it finally did hit me....

....That, and falling in love with choro and Brazilian music in general, led me to see how irreproducible it is without them. That's what made playing a bandolim so essential for me.

Doug, that was my experience too. I finally had to accept that I need a Bandolim or a similar sounding flattop, but it took me a few years. I always thought that archtops are the superior instruments, but somehow they don´t give me the tone and the possibilities that I need for Choro.
Some F5-players that I know can only sneer at me now, because I strayed from the right path.

[Jim Garber]

I finally broke down and bought a bandolim. This one was built in 1998 by Manoel Andrade of São Paulo. It took me awhile to get it playable -- I was not aware how these things were set up but with some good advise from some wise North American bandolimists and a loan of two sets of Rouxinol silk and steel strings (thanks, Linda!), I am on my way.