Developing bluegrass drive/groove

[Crowder]

Hinted at in another thread, but let's face it head on.

What are the keys to having good timing/groove/drive in a bluegrass band?

What role should each instrument play?

What are common "groove killers"?

[Ted Eschliman]

What are the keys to having good timing/groove/drive in a bluegrass band?

Mike, you mean besides G and D Major?

[mandolirius]

What are the keys to having good timing/groove/drive in a bluegrass band?

- having everyone be aware of the concept and committed to creating an appealing rhythm sound.

What role should each instrument play?

- the roles shift around. If it's a five-piece, with a fiddle, the mandolin will play rhythm and breaks primarily. Most of the backup will come from the fiddle and banjo. The banjo will mostly roll, except when the mandolin is soloing, then it will fill in for the missing chop. The guitar will play both strums and bass runs, both of which (hopefully) are contributing to the rhythm. The bass player will be able to shift emphasis from the back part of the beat to the middle to the leading edge, depending on the tempo and feel of the song.

What are common "groove killers"?

- stiff mandolin chop that makes everything sound mechanical. Bass players overplaying and not keeping the basic groove going. People not listening to one another.

These are just some of the things that can have a detrimental effect on rhythm. No doubt others will contribute more ideas.

[Jim Broyles]

Well, I've been lucky enough to play with good bass players and I learned early how to contribute with chopped rhythms, but to me the main groove killer is bad rhythm guitar playing. Too rock-like or too folk-like kills it for me. The Nashville-type country strum is not the greatest for BG either. Barre chord rhythm sounds awful in BG.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Michael - The best advice i could give you is the most obvious - listen to your favourite bands,the bands who's sound you'd like to emulate (NOT copy, there's a difference).Listen to what each instrument does,when they come in for a solo,how they end it, where the next bit begins,how it begins etc.,etc,etc,.
You folks in the USA are so fortunate (some more than others) to have the bands to see live.Watch,look,listen & learn - it really is that simple. When i started playing Banjo back in 1963,all i had was records as did the other members of the band that i eventually put together. We ALL listened to the same records,learned our parts,then put them together & we did a darn good job. Eventually,we were able to do quite a few numbers in our 'own' style,but 'classics',we always ''played 'em straight'',
Saska

[grassrootphilosopher]

Good groove/drive:
1. solid bass (not overplayed, most of the time just your average I/V bass, accented runs to lead into the next chord [from time to time])
2. solid guitar (no lead playing in the rythm section; a couple of accented runs at the end of the line when the bass is not doing runs)
3. good tight mandolin chop (a lick here and there when the banjo is not doing a lick)
4. a rolling banjo (that restricts itself to limited volume while playing rythm, that does all pinch-chords, a lick here and there at the end of a line, rolls; a banjo is difficult to play rythmically nice)
...
It breaks down to: Don´t have any instrument get into the way of any of the other instruments.

Bad groove/drive:
Sloppily played instruments. Instruments that play lead in the singers/soloists solos. Band members that do not listen to what the other band members play. Band members that do not anticipate what another band member migth play next. Band members that want to solo all the time. Band members that do not have the melody in their heads when they pick a tune. Band members that are unwilling to adjust to the picking abilities of their fellow musicians. Band members that play too loudly/quietly. Band members that say:"Well I would really like to play jazz/funk/rock & roll/R&B..." (I had that happen with banjo players quite often; the best thing to do is to tell them to go and play the music they would like to play and stay out of my way then). Listen to real pro musicians in a jam session. Most of the time you hardly notice that they are there. When they do a solo they stand out. Rythmically you´ll mostly notice them when they quit the session because the rythm will loose something.

I think it does not take really much to have a groove and a drive going. Most of the time, if you limit your playing to your ability you will find that you´ll play a lot less than you´d originally would have played. This though makes your music sound much better. If all the band members stick to this formula then the sound/groove/drive will be allright.

Listening advice:
- for guitar pickers: Edd Mayfield!!! (with Bill Monroe), Peter Rowan (with Bill Monroe, Muleskinner, Old and In The Way...), Charlie Waller (Country Gentlemen), Del McCoury (with Bill Monroe, DelMcCoury Band)
- for mandolin pickers: Bill Monroe, Ronnie McCoury, Doyle Lawson, Marty Stuart
- for bass players: Mark Schatz, Mike Bubb (spelling ??), Tom Gray (!!!)
- for banjo pickers: Rob McCoury, Pat Cloud, Bobby Thompson, Jim Mills and of course Earl Scruggs

These listening advices concentrate on fairly traditional bluegrass (except for the banjo due to it´s rythmically difficult role). The reason is that if you have the playing ability to pick like Tony Rice or Chris Thile ... you´d better be able to play in a good grove/drive so the advice probably goes out for intermediate players. If you have a Chris Thile kind of guy in your band that is overplaying all the time without knowing how to listen to the other band members, maybe he should go solo.

[mandozilla]

"...but to me the main groove killer is bad rhythm guitar playing. Too rock-like or too folk-like kills it for me. The Nashville-type country strum is not the greatest for BG either. Barre chord rhythm sounds awful..."

I heartily concur. It seems as though many guitar pickers I've jammed with recently are only interested in 'trying' to put out hot leads (with varying degrees of success) rather than good solid rhythm.
I'll take a 'rhythm only' guitar picker with good technique (ala Flatt, Martin, McCoury et al)any day. I can live without the tasteles (where's the melody?) lead breaks from many of these fellas. They don't really add anything to the mix IMHO. #...Of course, there are exceptions. #

[Fretbear]

The sad truth for bluegrass guitar players is that if they are "doing it right" rhythmically, they will just "disappear"; listen to Tony Rice, Lester Flatt, Jimmy Martin and Charles Sawtelle. You will notice what they are doing mostly if they stop doing it.

[Bernie Daniel]

mandozilla: #It seems as though many guitar pickers I've jammed with recently are only interested in 'trying' to put out hot leads (with varying degrees of success) rather than good solid rhythm.
I'll take a 'rhythm only' guitar picker with good technique (ala Flatt, Martin, McCoury et al)any day. I can live without the tasteles (where's the melody?) lead breaks from many of these fellas.

Fretbear: The sad truth for bluegrass guitar players is that if they are "doing it right" rhythmically, #they will just "disappear"; listen to Tony Rice, Lester Flatt, #Jimmy Martin and Charles Sawtelle. You will notice what they are doing mostly if they stop doing it.

NOt to pile on to the guitar players -- but merely to agree in the spirit of pointing out how important the guitar is to the great bluegrass sound.

I do appreciate a clean guitar break in SOME songs -- but not ALL songs. #

Again, I agree with the sentiment expressed here. #The traditional guitar role of providing a solid, dense rhythym plus crisp bass run tags, and also lead-ins and transitions is essential to the authentic bluegrass sound.

The guitar play who can jerk his 6-string up to the mic and SNAP OFF a solid clean bass run adds SOOOO much to the excitment -- in my opinion.

Whether the guitar takes a break or not is optional but providing the traditional duties as noted above are critical.

The bass player is like a person with who is invisible except when his/her pants falls down. #When he/she is doing their job they are invisible -- but if they make a mistake they are naked before you and all eyes are on them. #Great bluegrass needs a great bass player.

The fiddle, mandolin and banjo players have it made -- they are a dime-a-dozen and just have to keep time #

Then what the heck do I know I do not play in a bluegrass band or any band these days!

[lgc]

A good BG rhythm guitar player is hard to find. It is the only instrument with a true mid-range in a BG band and thus has the mst responsiblity to keep the two ends connected. It seems that the "pop" tht drives BG comes from the accentuations of the guitar.

[Perry]

A favorite analogy of mine about good rhythmn guitar is that it is like vanilla extract in a cake recipe; you can't really taste it but you would miss it if it weren't there.

But it's everybody's responsibility; (including the singers) to contribute to good groove.

Personally I'm a fan of everybody playing together but allowing the tempo to shift slightly rather then play to a metronomic groove. Of course it's good to be able to play to a metronomic groove as a band or individual but in reality the music should breathe.

Another great analogy is from Tony Rice....picture a moving train as the tempo; it is steady but the hobo in the box car is free to move around in that box car while the train holds a steady pace.

Another one:

Bluegrass - the One is the hood ornament
Rock - the One is the driver seat
Jazz - the One is the trunk

One bad apple DOES the spoil the bunch when it comes to groove.

[JeffD]

What are common "groove killers"?

Mandolin improvisations that sound basically the same for every song.

[mandopete]

It's not just the guitar, it's all of the instruments. Getting a good "groove" can be an elusive thing to be sure. I agree with the comment above about listening to bands that have a sound you like and see if you can deconstruct it to find out what is going on. Each band will have a different slant on things so there is no right or wrong way unless you want to merely imitate a sound.

Another thing I would recommend is a metronome. Not so much to be a tempo-nazi, but it helps everyone identify where the beat is. I tend to attack the beat and as a result, speed up.

[sunburst]

Really getting a groove going is more than just mechanically pounding the beat and afterbeat, computers can do that, but not really get a groove going.
Beyond the band working as an ensemble, it takes "chops" to get a serious groove. People who play a lot, have enough talent, and work together can add subtle inflections to the rhythm, play off of one another, react to the situation at hand with dynamics and control. In other words, once you've got the basics under control (solid timing, listening to one another, working as an ensemble) the best musicians can use their "chops" to embellish, fill out, and enhance the sound in many ways. That's when you really get the groove.

It's been said by several that the guitar and bass disappear when they're doing their job right, I'll add that everyone disappears when they're doing their job right, right up until the time when they're supposed to stand out with an appropriate fill, backup, or break. It's hard to teach and hard to explain because there is so much involved and it's all subtleties, and it takes good musicians (not necessarily hot pickers) who play enough to stay sharp to do it well.

[Jim Broyles]

What are common "groove killers"?

Mandolin improvisations that sound basically the same for every song.

Jeff, while I'll agree that mandolin solos which sound the same for every song can make playing kind of boring, the groove can still be strong. The guitar, bass and mando chopps are the groove builders, but a lousy break can still have a good groove under it.

[woodwizard]

I think sunburst hit the nail on the head on thaten'

[Keith Wallen]

It's always the banjo players fault... come on. :-)

I will add one and that is sustain between the bass player and the mando. Depending on the speed of the song there is a set amount of time between the on beat (bass) and off beat (mando). If the bass hits and allows the note to sustain and then kills the note right before the mando chop and if the mando does the same thing it can create a wonderfull groove. Now there are different variations of that where the bass can sustain longer and the mando can even sustain less creating a quick short chop. This is one thing to play around with that can help the groove and even change it especially based on the dynamics of the song.

[Scotti Adams]

...play on top of the beat.

[Jim Broyles]

...play on top of the beat.

What does this mean, Scotti? Are you saying don't syncopate at all, or do you mean that everybody's playing should be precisely on the beat?

[poymando]

"...play on top of the beat."
But don't speed up.(or drag...) What a great topic. This is, I think, one of the most important skills for playing BG and one of the hardest things to learn.
I think playing with a metronome is good practice. I also think playing with a recording of a super solid band (any of the Bluegrass Album Band, Johnson Mtn Boys) is helpful. If you really want to go the extra mile, jam with the Bluegrass Album Band CD and record yourself playing along. You might feel like you are in the groove with the record but having the recording, you might find you're not locking in. If this is the case, you can adjust what you are doing to try to fit in. Seek out and play with good players. Find a great, articulate bass player and ask some questions. (Bass player is usually not too busy at the record table shake and howdy session...)Talk to any Jimmy Martin vets you can find. Those fellas seem to be a little more articulate to the fine details of playing BG..
As to playing on top of the beat, one of the best, easy descriptions I ever heard was "its all attitude"
Its too bad there is not more educational info on this topic. The majority of videos, books etc are geared towards tunes, licks etc and not the fundamentals of good timing. Bluegrass (IMHO) does not need to be all flash, speed and hot licks but good rhythm and singing are essential.
Monroe was a master of playing anywhere around the beat.