High(er) end mandolins

[sachmo]

There's been a lot of conversation lately on the populartiy of the Altman, Ellis, Red Diamond, MF5, etc. brand mandolins and I'm seriously considering one. It looks to me the price range for this level of instrument is around 10K give or take.

I've never played or for that matter held any of these but judging from everyone here they represent the upper crust of builders out there today. Please forgive me if i've not mentioned everyone as I know there are many builders out there who make wonderful instruments in that price range.

This is a LOT of money for me and i'm wondering how much better this level of instrument is than the Poe's, BRW's, Smith Creek, etc. Do you really get that much better of an instrument? or will I just be moving into the "upper crust" of my mandolin snobery.

Also along that line if you were to spend that much money on a mandolin, what would you do and why.

Thanks in advance.

S

[mandolirius]

What are you playing now and what kind of music do you mostly play?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Also check oput the Weber range of instruments,you may be pleasantly surprised at just what you get for much less cash,
Saska

[Greenmando]

My experience, or two cents worth.
If you can play it, buy it.
The worth is when you can press it beyond where you think it can play, and it presses back.
This is where the Loar's excel, they just out perform the player.

[Crowder]

It's interesting what some makers have done with their pricing....they can get in these conversations because they're asking a lot for their work and some people are willing to pay it. Good on them, says I, but my point is that you can't always let the price tag help you choose a mandolin. You need to play them.

Price CAN be indicative of relative quality or value, but only after several years. If you watch the classifieds carefully, you can easily see that some instruments have a clearly-defined price point that has been established over time and doesn't vary. A good example would be an early Flatiron F from the Montana days. You'll see them priced between $3800-4200 depending on how fast a sale is desired. The market has had over 20 years to decide what they are worth, and I think it has very efficiently placed them at the right price point. The price suggests that they are generally considered as good as or a reasonable alternative to the typical small-builder F-style mandolin being built and sold today for $3500-4500 depending on the builder, with maybe a slight premium for the "they aren't making any more" factor.

Used work by some if not most small builders trades at a discount to new, which implies that buyers would rather contact the builder and specify exactly what they want. It also implies that there isn't an extensive waiting list for that builder. If there is a long waiting list, you'll see the used prices lean closer to the new, as buyers are willing to pay for an instrument that is available immediately.

Finally, the really, really good stuff will always be highly in demand, and once the word gets out the prices seem to go steadily up. Buying with this in mind can be very dangerous because the "hype" moves from builder to builder very quickly and doesn't always mesh with the real opinions of a wider audience. I could name several builders who have been hyped here and elsewhere who cannot demand the price point you would expect based on what you might read or hear. Over time, the broader truth is born out.

Anyway, here it is: play with your hands, see with your eyes, and especially, hear with your ears.

[bcoryh]

I am an owner and big fan of Ellis mandolins, and I have owned a Collings MF5, a Kimble F, and a Daley F -- all in that $10K+ range, and all very nice. #Another wonderful mandolin I have owned is made by Andrew Mowry. #His mandos are a real bargain and they fare very favorably against the instruments named above. #His workmanship is impeccable and he is a class act. No financial interest. #Enjoy your search!

[John Flynn]

As with any kind of purchase that involves a fusion of technology and artistry (such as gold clubs, guns, cars and all kinds of musical instruments) there are always diminishing returns as you go up the price scale. On average, a $10,000 mandolin is generally not going to be "twice as good" as a $5,000 mandolin. A majority of an audience doing a blind listening would not say it sounds twice as good. It will not be twice as loud. It probably won't look twice as good. It will not stay in tune twice as long. You can't play it twice as fast, etc.

As you go up the price scale, it is more like a "pursuit of excellence," going for the best, ragardless of the cost. If you can't play an instrument first, you are really putting yourself in the hands of the builder. You are saying, "I like your work and your reputation well enough to give you $10K to make me an instrument to be delivered many months from now." If you can afford it and it either makes you happy, or you feel it's necessary for you to make a living as a professional mandolin player, you should consider it.

But then there is another problem: Sometimes $10K mandolins may not even seem as good as some $5K mandolins. You may technically "get what you paid for," but not what you wanted. Also, sometimes $10K mandolins may have qualities that the average player can't fully appreciate. An analogy might be that I would hit the best set of golf clubs in the world pretty much like I would hit the cheapest set...very badly! I once A/B'ed a well-played-in Gilchrist with a new Collings MF5. I'm sure it was just me and my limited appreciation, but I liked the Collings much better, even though the if the Gil had been for sale, it would have probably cost at least three times as much. So the Gil may have been a better instrument, but I would have been happier with the Collings for a lot less.

There are really no guarantees on your satisfaction. Some builders do have a return policy, which is great, but it is still going to be a let-down if you have to use it. If I were going to pay $5K or $10K for a mando tomorrow, my first inclination would be to buy used, in a situation where I could play it first. If I had to buy new and unplayed, I would probably buy the best Collings I could afford, just because IMHO, they are the most consistently good mandolins for the money I have ever played, and I don't own a Collings, yet.

[Hans]

Well, you live in TN. No better place to try mandolins than IBMA in 3 weeks.

[cgwilsonjr]

Their are many great builder's today that I would consider in the "upper crust". I have an A.L. Smart and a Brentrup that are wonderful mandolins. I have buddies that play Hiedens and Gibson Ferns that sound amazing. For 10k you have a lot of options. You could even get two killer used A models for that price. Good luck with the quest. Chuck

[Cheryl Watson]

Are you wanting a very great sounding player's instrument or a collectible/investment mandolin?

Some of the very best samples of mandolins I've played have been Gilchrist, Kimble, Nugget, Dudenbostel, Ellis, and Brock and a specific top of the line Weber varnish fern that had great volume tone and depth and playability but I have not played all the brands you mentioned--only heard most of them either on stage and/or recordings. Recordings are often misleading with all the EQ and effects.

From any builder, some of their mandolins turn out better than others. Some builders ARE more consistent though.

I personally own a Kimble F5 (just awesome!!) and an Apitius F5 which is sweet, clear, and pretty sounding with a very refined quality of tone but not as aggressive and loud as the Kimble.

Two years ago, I played an Ellis that I compared to four or five other Ellis' (also very fine) but that ONE just killed me!! I was very depressed when it sold at IBMA. I jammed with Roland White for an hour with that mandolin and played it every day until it sold. I was in love for certain! Roland loved it too. Tom was so nice to put up with me and he knew I was not rich enough to buy it. The word VISA kept going through my mind but my rational brain won out.

Twang

[grassrootphilosopher]

I´d say: GET A DUFF!

Since the choice is there, Hans has really made a point. Go to the IBMA and check out what´s there.

Also, since you´re in the USA, why not check out what´s on the used instrument market. Get a well cared for, well played used instrument and save yourself the break-in time.

Enjoy your hunt for the perfect tone.

[red7flag]

I just put down a nice pile for an Ellis. #Was it worth it? #To me yes. #I love the sound of some mandolins. #Addict? #Yes. #I play a lot. #I write on the instrument a lot. #The tone and feel of an instrument inspires different parts of my writing. #The instruments I chose were not that they were the most expensive, even in their class, but that they had qualities that really inspire me. #Was the Ellis worth that much. #For me yes. #Remember also that most likely it will hold its value pretty well should I decide to sell. #(Not likely any time soon) #Just my take.
Tony

[sachmo]

IBMA is a must, played it last year and it was fantastic. Currently i'm playing a BRW F5, its really a nice instrument probably the nicest i've had and there's been a few. Well OK many. I play bluegrass and have been sucessfull at the guitar but i've had my fill of that instrument and don't enjoy it what so ever. I only play it 'cause I get paid. I know its awful but its true, I play the mandolin all the time 'cause I love it. The BRW is a very nice instrument, plays good and will sound good when its broken in, i'll see whats what at the IBMA and report back.

S

[lenf12]

grassrootphilosopher said "GET A DUFF".

I couldn't agree more. What a fantastic mandolin he makes. I do confess to having a '04 Duff Fern F-5 in birdseye maple sitting out on a stand in my living room (with a matching H-5 'dola) so I am quite biased. I believe that Paul will be at IBMA this year but I don't know if he's bringing any mandos for sale. If so, play one. They aren't quite in the $10k price range yet but probably should be. (No offense to all of the fine builders on this list. You all build great mandolins).

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[danb]

Diminishing returns is maybe true, but there's an inspiration factor to consider. As they get better they start to lead you in new and interesting directions based on how they respond. At this point you've got to separate your instinct to place a dollar value on things and think more "do I like it a lot and can I afford it". I think something as intimately tied to your peace and happiness as an instrument seems reasonable for the bigger bucks in that context.

I'm also a mandolin nut though.

[Alex Fields]

i'm wondering how much better this level of instrument is than the Poe's, BRW's, Smith Creek, etc.

In my opinion, based on extensive experience playing a lot of instruments in both price range--yes.

The other thing is to try them and see for yourself.

[northfolk]

Hard to beat the Webers for the price, in my opinion?

[sgarrity]

Diminishing returns is definitely true. But the little bit extra you get from a really high quality mandolin is worth every penny. Some of them are true works of art. But what I love is their responsiveness. The only way I know to explain it is the great ones feel like they're coming alive in your hands while you play them. Not everyone understand this and quite frankly, it takes some experience to be able to enjoy a fine instrument. So play everything you can get your hands on and see what speaks to you.

Now....let me let you in on a little secret, it's called the A-style mandolin. I've owned a bunch of F5s and I love the way they look. But you can get a lot more for your money in a nice A5. If I was in the market, I'd be taking a serious look at the new Ellis A5. Just one mando nut's opinion....

[lovethemf5s]

I once A/B'ed a well-played-in Gilchrist with a new Collings MF5. I'm sure it was just me and my limited appreciation, but I liked the Collings much better, even though the if the Gil had been for sale, it would have probably cost at least three times as much.

I'm not so sure it was just you. I had a similar experience and I picked the MF5 too. I can't give it enough praise.

[Chris Biorkman]

If I was in the market, I'd be taking a serious look at the new Ellis A5. #Just one mando nut's opinion.... #

You know it's only a matter of time.

[sgarrity]

Hey now...I resemble that remark!!

[Cheryl Watson]

Biorkman--you are right on top of things. I had no idea that Tom was offering an A-style--Now you and I both KNOW that those will NOT be inferior to the F model by any amount.

Gosh, now I am suffering!

And hey, for anyone seriously looking into an Ellis F5--I very unselfishly want to make it very clear that the Ellis F5 (#74) that is in the classifieds for sale is beyond awesome. I have played it about four times and it is superior. That was three years ago at Tom's booth at IBMA. Roland White played that mandolin --I was jamming with him and it felt PERFECT and sounded PERFECT !!ah...and very handsome looking too. It was grassy for certain but it can do jazz, classical, anything!!! Roland loved it.

Ok, I am making myself a little sick here in the stomach--I guess I am not THAT unselfish.

Whoever buys this will get a monster mandolin which is worth every dang penny (but I did not have enough pennies) and I will be their best friend forever--invite me to your house to jam--I'll fly there--just kidding, a little. If someone finds anything wrong with the tone and volume and playability and response and looks of #74 then I would think that they were insane!!

My only hope now is an Ellis A...not too shabby!!

Twang (with twangs of pain and looking for a better job)

[kmando]

Just to throw another piece of spruce into the fire, if you are at IBMA and Sim Daley is there, take a look at his mandolins. There are 4 of them floating around here in Memphis and IMO, they can hold their own with some of the best. Of course I own one of those so I could be a bit biased. Worth checking out though.

[jealbe49]

IBMA is a great place but the background may make it hard to really tell the tone of an instrument. Cotten Music always has some nice mandolins in stock and relaxed environment to play as long as needed. Be sure to take your current mandolin so you can A/B everything you play. Bottom line, play as many as you can and find one that inspires you and makes you a better player!!!I did and my search is over!!

[red7flag]

About the noise level at IBMA, most vendors will let you take an instrument either to the area where there are tables and chairs and less noise or to your room for a serious test drive.
Tony