Need a pickup or mic for a gig!

[david blair]

The Schertler DYN is actually not a pickup, but a type of microphone, and when attached to the top it uses the wood as an extension of itself.
When carefully located they sound pretty good if plugged into an acoustic amp or mic input of a soundboard. But on stage with drummers, guitars, anything plugged in, the signal will be difficult to boost to their volume level. Signal isolation and gain will be further hampered if there are stage amps being used or a monitor pointing at you. Your mandolin top will vibrate away, and feedback at lower gain levels than your band mates'.
For better results get a simple "hot dot" type of pickup to supplement your volume. These need a high Z input like a DI box or guitar amp. Using both pickups gives much more volume before feedback. I use a dot on the bridge, blended with a Countryman mini mic. A la Sam Bush.
For a UKE the Bluestick from Schertler RULES!

[herbsandspices]

Thanks David! While I already have purchased a Dyn-M for my Mandolin (already been installed), and one for my Uke (will be installed soon), I do like the idea of combining them with a microphone, someday.

So, in the meantime, I'm going to have to keep my fingers crossed and hope that it comes across sounding half-ways decent at the show!

Best,
john

[mandroid]

Hot Dot or not,... Classic feedback loop,... Acoustic instruments with an electric signal generating pickup, attached to the soundboard
[or bridge atop an acoustic soundboard]
in general, are subject to having the speaker's output ring the top, that the pickup is attached to ...

... kneebone attached to the thighbone, thighbone attached to, the hip bone ...

[kwd]

I've been lurking this thread because I'm in the same situation as the poster. I'm primarily a double bass player. The challenges of amplifying the mandolin really aren't any different than the bass fiddle. I've been surprised to find that the mandolin is more difficult to amplify than the double bass.

I had an AudioTechnica PRO70 that I had purchased to do some recording with the bass. I found a glowing review on Harmony Central of someone using the PRO70 with astounding results on a teens A Gibson, like mine. My results weren't so great. The mic is just too hot. Even standing behind my amp it would feed back at low volumes. I was able to fix some of this by zeroing out the bass pot on my Polytone. I went out today and purchased an LRBaggs Radius. These had been recommended by an associate at Gryphon Strings here in the SF Bay Area. I think I have a set up I can live with. I run the Radius into my LRBaggs DI with the bass zeroed out, phase inverter on, notch filter on a B natural and gain at zero. I run the Baggs into the 'preamp out' of my Polytone. It's not microphonic sound but it's not as volatile as the mic. I recreated the feedback ring and then moved the notch filter pot to find the offending note, B. I was able to dial out nearly all of the ring with it positioned on that note. I guess the body of my mandolin has some natural resonance with a B.

I am using the putty to hold the element in place. Even with the clamp on I'm able to close the lid on my case. I'll follow up tomorrow with how this all plays out at church.

[herbsandspices]

Great post, kwd!!

I went to a great little violin store here in Chicago called Seman Violins, to look at some amps and preamps - they carry Schertler, LR Baggs, and Ultrasound - the exact same brands I wanted to compare! Unfortunately, they were out of the Baggs amp, but I messed around with the Schertler David amp quite a bit. My mando did give feedback directly into the amp - but through the Baggs Para Acoustic DI (they had those in stock), it sounded perfect... so I think I'm going to invest in some preamps before the show!

Glad the Radius is workin' for ya! Please let us know. (you can be my test monkey for our show next weekend!)

john

[kwd]

I had a successful outing with the LRBaggs Radius.

When we rehearsed the tune I ran my amp and DI params set at the safe levels I checked out last night. I ran the Paracoustic DI in to the effects loop return so I could use the gain, if needed. After the first run through I heard those dreaded words, "I can't hear the mandolin." I turned the gain up to 4, anticipating an ear piercing screech. No feedback. We ran through it again and everyone seemed pleased with the level and overall vibe. I had a few minutes before the service to play. I'm happy with the sound. It's not a mic'd sound but the trade off of not having the volatility is worth it. I think it's important to mention that the Radius doesn't eliminate feedback woes altogether. Without the DI's notch filter, eq and phase inverter I don't think the outcome would have been as good.

I might try to cover up the soundhole next time for an added layer of protection.

[david blair]

"hot dot or not, classic feedback loop"
I agree about placing a pickup on the soundboard being problematic. I think it also inhibits the natural tone when placed on or in the saddle. Mine is placed on the top side of the bridge, under the A string. It never feeds back, doesn't affect the unplugged tone at all, and gives a very hot signal to blend with the microphone. The microphone doesn't feedback because that signal only goes to the main PA, blended with the pickp.
So, one could use a contact "dot" pickup for the monitors to better hear next to a drummer. Schatten designs now has the perfect endpin preamp with stereo blending that can use phantom power. Each preamp unit can be matched to the native impedance of your piezo crystal.

[herbsandspices]

I bought a Schertler Unico amp today, to use as a monitor at the show this Sunday... figured it'd be a good match for the Dyn pickups I have in my mandolin and uke - and will be flexible enough to be used as a full-on amp in smaller venues.

Now, my goal is go get the mandolin & uke sounding good with the Para Acoustic DI's, which will then be fed to the soundboard, and the Unico as a monitor. I've got a lot to learn in the next couple days!

john

[kwd]

It's not that bad. # The LRBaggs ParaAcoustic DI is easy to use. # One scan through the operating instructions and you should be set.

[Doug Hoople]

I finally had a chance to try my Schertler set-up at a small gig last Sunday. Dyn-M pickup and Unico amp. I was hoping to also try out a K & K Silver Bullet that I had on order, but it didn't arrive in time. I didn't add anything into the middle of the chain, no pre-amps, no mixers, no pedals.

I was surprised that the combination sounded so good "in the wild" (I was still not totally happy with my home experiments) and got really solid feedback from the audience about how good the mandolin sounded.

So, all in all, the pure matched Schertler seems to be a good combination for the mandolin.

[herbsandspices]

Great to hear the show went well, Doug! The Unico amp sure is a cool amp - well worth the money, IMHO.

When you said "...got really solid feedback..", I thought to myself "He thinks feedback is a good thing?" - But then I read the rest of your sentence, and it made sense!

My bandmate bought a K&K Silver bullet for his banjo - we'll see who sounds better out there this weekend!

john

[Doug Hoople]

By all accounts, the Silver Bullet will sound better than the Dyn-M.

Actually, you're miking a banjo, right? I take it back... the mando will sound better. But I digress...

Microphones, in general, are still the best way to reproduce the sound of an acoustic mandolin. From what I've read and heard, if you can beat the feedback problem, an acoustic mandolin will always sound better through a microphone.

But for all the pickup options, the Dyn-M is the best bet (again, if price is not a stopper). And a combination of the pickup and the Silver Bullet will, I'm hoping, provide the best of both.

[Doug Hoople]

The Unico amp sure is a cool amp - well worth the money, IMHO.

IMHO, too! When I bought mine two years ago, nothing else even came close. And the mandolin is a pretty hard case to get sounding right amplified, so I felt obliged to get all the help I could.

I haven't regretted it.

I would be interested in an A-B comparison with either the Ultrasound or the Baggs. Neither one was available two years ago.

[herbsandspices]

I would be interested in an A-B comparison with either the Ultrasound or the Baggs. Neither one was available two years ago.

Doug,

The shop I went to here in Chicago had the LR Baggs amp, a couple Ultrasounds, and the Schertler Unico & David.

I wish I would've taken the opportunity to compare the three of them, but I narrowed down my choices by this rationale:
1) LR Baggs amp is made in Korea (I try to stick to made in USA as much as I can)
2) Ultrasound was a bit larger than I wanted, and only had two inputs
3) Unico has the added microphone input, is compact in size, and is made in Switzerland & Italy

SO, that was that for me! Easy decision for me, but I don't think you can all that wrong with any of them.

john

[herbsandspices]

Just got back from the show!!!

It went REALLY well - the two Dyn pickups in my mandolin and uke sounded awesome!! They were both driven by the LR Baggs PADI, fed into the Schertler Unico amp for a monitor, and from there, sent as one channel into the PA (we have too many instruments, so while each PADI to the PA woulda been better, this was still great.

I can't believe how nervous I was coming to playing "plugged in" - the show went just like any others. Schuba's here in Chicago is an awesome venue with a great sound guy, Stan, and a fun vibe.

Thanks SO much everyone, for your input - I would never have heard of Schertler, and probably would've panicked without all of the input everyone here gave.

john

[herbsandspices]

Just noticed from a pic I found on a Punch Bros fansite that Chris Thile uses the Audio Technica ATM350 - so does Noam Pikelny on the banjo and Gabe Witcher on the violin.


(also visible - besides the Loar - is the Korg AW1 clip-on tuner)

Makes me wonder about this mic even more! Might be worth tryin' out.

john

[mandroid]

Having both a soundboard transducer/pickup for separate monitor bus/amp, and a microphone to the Main mixer
for the House, will be quite versatile .

Abundant prior discussion of various attached condenser microphones in the prior posts.

Having a ToneGard, as seen above,
gives place to attach it, Without any modification to Your Loar.

[jefflester]

Just noticed from a pic I found on a Punch Bros fansite that Chris Thile uses the Audio Technica ATM350 - so does Noam Pikelny on the banjo and Gabe Witcher on the violin.

He used a Schertler for years with Nickel Creek but has now switched with Punch Brothers.

[Doug Hoople]

Just got back from the show!!!

It went REALLY well - the two Dyn pickups in my mandolin and uke sounded awesome!!

Congratulations, John, on a great show, and congratulations also on getting your sound dialed in on the first go.

Always nice to hear a success story here at the Cafe!

[first string]

Doesn't Sam Bush use a clip on mic blended with a pickup? And he plays with drums. Anyone know how he avoids feedback etc? Obviously most people on this board don't have his sound man, but still...

[mandroid]

My logical sense of it is : the piezo goes to the monitor, kill feedback with automatic detector ,
or EQ to notch out the particular frequencies that feed back.

Having cut out of the monitor channel the feedback resonant frequencies still leaves enough to work
with, for that less critical use.

the better, full frequency and acoustic sound from the microphone goes to the sound guy, and out to the paying customers ..

may be a bit much to play a small room though, as the mains will bounce back off the rear wall and back to the stage Mics, then that needs another anti-feedback treatment.

[herbsandspices]

Thanks for all the info guys! I may look into a ToneGard, although I like to keep my mando in its case.

The Audio-Technica ATM350 seems like a really cool mic. Mandroid, that sure would be a nice setup! It's funny that something as earthy as acoustic music can get so technical & complicated!

john

[c3hammer]

I have a DPA 4061 that is super simple to set up and get sounding great. You can simply tape it to the strings between the bridge and the tail piece with it hanging out toward the lower f hole a couple inches. It works great down there. I've even used two in stereo. It sound cool with headphones when recording.

There is a stereo pair on ebay right now that is going pretty cheap. This is how I got mine as well. Here's the item number at ebay: 280246633600 It's pretty good deal for a couple of $400 mics.

You'll need 9v battery pack for it as 48v phantom power doesn't work on these buggers unless you have a transformer inline.

Here's the link to a good source for battery boxes and other assorted poaching.... er recording gear.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cg...tem/SP-SPSB-10

If I'm not mistaken both Ricky Skaggs and Adam Steffy use these mics for live work. As long as you don't stand right over a monitor or facing the PA they don't feed back at all.

Another cool use for them is to warm up a lesser guitar pickup system. The combo of an onboard pick up and the DPA on a guitar is incredible.

Cheers,
Pete

[ELSOL102]

I had a pickup that you stick on with putty, BUT the putty did make a mark on my mandolin which has a glossy black finish...there is a dull area where I stuck on this putty, and I may have slightly scratched the finish as well when sticking the transducer onto my mandolin. For my new mandolin I will not stick this putty on my instrument. You might be better off getting a mic stand and microphone...and you can probably use a Shure SM58, or Beta 58a, or the SM57 would be good...and just mic your mandolin on the stage. I get miked at open mics and it works great. Fisher makes a nice bridge pickup for the mandolin...there are some other pickups...there are ways to mount the jack on the outside of the mandolin but then would it fit in the case? I would like the mandolin pickup bridge installed and hooked into the jack that I had installed...all this costs more money...and I still might need to use an EQ box...I did put the transducer I already ahd on the inside of my mandolin...and had a jack installed...this seems to work for the streets and subways but in the repairman's shop he did not like the sound...it sounded thin in there, but on stage I think I will mike it. Getting a better pick up will cost some $, $130 for the Fisher, $50 to $75 to install & set up (it's a bridge pickup), maybe more with a jack installation...although another mike and mic stand...but it might be cheaper than getting a pickup installed. A lot of folks playing mandolin on stage at bluegrass events seem to mike their mandolins...they do say with these piezo pickups you should use an EQ box...another $100...so...maybe you are better off miking it....get a nice microphone on Craigs List used...buy local and try it out. I got an SM58 with a cord on Craigs List for $75. I also got a Beta 58a which is wonderful but that I only paid $37 brand new in box from an old boyfriend!

[ELSOL102]

How come you don't just mike the instrument for now? That would take care of the mandolin and the uke...you might not be able to get a pick up installed fast enough. I am curious what the Schertler is....I haven't heard this name before.