Tenor banjo - may bell queen

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks to all for allowing tenor banjo discussions here. I don't know where
else to ask, which is part of my inquiry here.

I have acquired a May Bell Queen tenor banjo, apparently from the 1920's, a pretty nice one in very good condition and with a removable resonator back. I've searched the web a bit and found some pix of these. Most of them were dark-colored, and this one is a nice blonde, on the neck and the resonator back. I've also found pix of some that have fancy gold-colored metalwork and these are clearly a cut above most of them and of the one I have.

My situation with this one is that it has it's original tuners, which are friction, not geared. They're simple and pretty, all the metal parts are in great shape. I have two problems with them, tho: One is that I haven't the patience to achieve true tuning with them, I'm accustomed to modern geared tuners; Second, the G tuner slips a bit and won't hold tune at all.

I've tried a washer, and then small rubber O-rings on the G tuner shaft to hold the shaft more tightly against the face of the headstock, and that pretty much stabilized this tuner, so the second problem is solved, but not the first.

I have a set of modern replacement tuners from StewMac, but they would require enlarging the holes in the headstock. I would love to find some geared, modern, tuners with a shaft size such that I wouldn't have to drill
the headstock, but I haven't been able to find much information on alternative tuning machines.

Finally, I'm pretty certain of the value of this instrument, but I'm not certain, and I haven't been able to get good info on how enlarging the tuner holes
might affect the value. The value question is becoming less and less of a consideration, but I'd still like more information about it...

I've spoken with 1.5 people at Elderly (one directly, another indirectly, thru the first one) and they didn't really want to continue the conversation, just let it drop. (I have no hard feelings about that, it's fine.) And I've spoken with
a shop in the Carolinas which carried some fancy May Bell Queen banjos.
It seemed pretty clear to me that their advice was colored because they were
somewhat interested in buying my banjo, so I don't think I got completely straight answers.

So... I'd like to find other expert advice about this one. About the value, the history and most importantly about modern tuning machine alternatives that might let me install them without headstock surgery.

Failing all that, I'll either go ahead and do the surgery, or simply try to pass this one on to someone who has the patience (and experience) to keep it in
tune with the original friction tuners.

Many thanks!

stv

[danb]

Do you have pictures? I can't recall where a May Bell falls in the value scale, but I would never hesitate to make a change in the interest of playability.

[Steve L]

Steve, try pm-ing Mike Keyes. #He's our resident tenor banjo maven and in the unlikely event he can't answer your questions, he can probably steer you in the right direction. #Might be worth a call or email to Bernunzio as well.

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks, Dan. #The local votes are running in that direction.

I'll take some pix. #I have some idea of the value of these, but I haven't seen one like this one...

Thanks, SteveL, I will!

Gratefully,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Here are some pix...

[steve V. johnson]

the back...

[steve V. johnson]

I think I have a close-up of the back... taken at a different time, tho.

[steve V. johnson]

sides...

[steve V. johnson]

and some on the problematic tuners...

This is the low side, the loose G tuner, but before I tried the washer/o-ring.

[steve V. johnson]

and finally, here is the G tuner disassembled, along with the modern StewMac geared replacement.

I guess I should take some pix of the way the tuner holes are cut in the headstock. #The back side is so nicely done, with a countersunk rim to fit the taper of the gnurled barrel. # That's the part that would necessarily be cut away to accomodate modern, geared tuners. #Another time for more pix, not tonight, sorry...

[Steve L]

Nice looking banjo Steve. I've got a lower-end May Bell...no flange, walnut body and resonator with an arch top tone ring. It came with a slightly funky neck, geared aftermarket tuners and a warm sounding plastic head. I had friction pegs on my Weyman for a while and life is just too short for that stuff! I like both banjos a lot.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Steve,

This is all new to me... Banjo 101... <GG>

It's pretty. I had given it to a friend, long ago, and apparently he did so well with it (lives kinda far away) that some
relatives got him a nicer one. I never expected this one back, but he neither wanted the work nor the money
in selling it, so I got it back. Quite a surprise.

Thanks for the good counsel!

stv

[mikeyes]

Steve,

That is a nice little intermediate level Slingerland banjo worth $600 give or take a few hundred (the tailpiece is worth $150 minimum), maybe as much as $900 depending on the tone ring and the condition of the neck. There are at least two more levels of the Maybelle banjo, the last one being very scarce. It looks like a late 1920s-early 1930s instrument.

While they vary quite a bit, they can be quite good for Irish music. I have a friend who has the next level up (a toilet seat tone ring, the Presto tailpiece, direct tuners like yours) which is great in a session. The value to players and collectors is not enough to worry about the tuners, however.

There used to be a German manufacturer that made geared tuners that fit the smaller holes, but apparently they are out of business. If you decide to go with modern tuners, you can't do any better than Gotohs (well you can, for $200 apiece.) The trick is to use a reamer to enlarge the holes. It takes a little work, but if you are confident with woodworking, fairly straight forward. Don't use a drill, you will splinter the wood. I don't think that the value of the instrument will suffer that much as it is not really a collectable.

Bob Smakula sells the Gotoh tuners at a very nice price, if he has them. Otherwise go to Windy Strings who are the importers and very nice people too.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey, Mike!

Wow, thanks very much for the comprehensive infos! Wonderful.

I'll check into the tuners you recommend, and I doubt that I'll do the reaming myself, but
I will make sure that whoever does it will use a reamer and go gently into that quiet headstock.
(Ahem, sorry there...)

Most reassuring, thanks!!!

stv

[KanMando]

Steve,

You've got a really nice banjo. It would be a shame to replace the tuners unless the replacements fit the original holes. Give the Banjo Hangout a try.

banjo hangout


I have a 20's Slingerland May Bell Recording Nite Hawk tenor. It was a mid-range instrument in the Slingerland line. Even so, it's a very fine instrument. Unfortunately, after I bought it in the early 70's,I replaced the original tailpiece and gave it to the "luthier". I regret it now.

Bob

[steve V. johnson]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the Hangout! I remember some folks here (in other forums) writing that they didn't know of any sites
dedicated to banjo information and discussions, so this is golden.

Yeah, I feel the same, that it would be a shame not to fit the original holes. Certainly in today's world of 'we can
fabricate anything at all', someone, somewhere has thought of this before, so I'll keep looking. I know, however,
that my patience is finite, so if I can't find non-surgical replacements in a while, I'll find someone who wants it
with the friction tuners or I'll have the cuts done to fit modern tuners.

I'm a little confused, tho, by your last sentence. Is it the tailpiece replacement, or the giving away of the banjo
that you regret?

Thanks,

stv

[mikeyes]

Steve,

You can find one for one replacement friction tuners and Bob Smakula has a set of geared pegs that look like friction pegs (or violin pegs) but they are not the same. He also sells vintage friction tuners.

If you want to learn about putting in the Gotohs lookHere.

[KanMando]

I'm a little confused, tho, by your last sentence. Is it the tailpiece replacement, or the giving away of the banjo
that you regret?

Steve - sorry about the ambiguity. I still have the banjo. The original tailpiece was broken, that's why I replaced it. Still, in light of today's vintage market, I should have kept the original.

Here's some Slingerland links:

Slingerland history

1930's Slingerland catalog

Here's a photo of my "Nite Hawk"

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have a Gretsch Broadkaster tenor with the same kind of tuners. The Banjohangout.com is a great resource.

[mandroid]

Kind of a visual change but right angled geared tuners are significantly lower than 4:1 for the commoner planetary tuner , Thats what I'm using on my 4 string Melody Banjos , Mandolin scale neck with friction tuners Really is a near impossible thing to tune.
and you don't need bigger peg head holes, either.

[Eddie Sheehy]

My Gretsch Broadkaster. Heavy on the MOP.

[John L]

I had the same issue with my TB, a Stewart probably of a similar vintage. I replaced the tuners, but did not have to do anything with the holes. Works much better and I have the originals to put back, although I doubt I ever will. I am not a purist, but I hate being intrusive unless absolutely necessary.

BTW, I started a thread on strings for tenors, and have not had a chance to make the string change I promised. Must get to that! I bought a special Irish TB set which is supposed to be for tuning of GDAE or GDAD, rather than the more typical CGDA.

[steve V. johnson]

It's interesting to consider right-angle tuners... Hmmmm....

My latest research has located some of the discontinued German narrow-shaft planetary tuners that Elderly used to sell.

I found a couple of sets on eBay, bid to at least $120. It's cool to know that they're out there, it's nice to see what they are really
like, as opposed to simply hearing about them anecdotally. I don't think that I'll go that deep in $$ for 'em.

Someone at the Banjo Hangout said flatly, 'such things don't exist'... OK.

Also, there are tuners that look like fiddle pegs with gears inside. They were designed for fiddles, to provide
geared action for fiddle tuners, so the main shafts are conical, but they're available and affordable. Not for my
application, but really cool.

More and more I'm resigned to reaming the tuner holes and installing modern tuners.

"Stay tuned", I'm sure there's some more to come...

Thanks!

stv

[Ken Olmstead]

Steve, aren't old banjos fun!! 6 months ago I was given a 1930 Vega Vox III plectrum banjo. Being a 4 string banjo player I often have people wanting to show me their heirloom instruments and I usually know what to expect when they come out but when I opened the case on this one...whoa! I won't say it is the "Loar" of Jazz banjos but getting pretty dang close. Anyway, I told him I would research the repairs and that it was going to cost somewhere between $500-1,000 to repair and would be worth quite a bit more than that if it was. After a couple weeks he called me and said it was mine if I wanted it!!! So I am just this week sending it off to be repaired but a lot of decisions have been made so I can sympathize with you!

Very sweet banjo you have there, by the way!!!! Worth the trouble! Because it is so clean it would be nice to keep it as original as possible but it is no good to anyone if it can't be played!

Hope I am not stretching the rules here by speaking about a "plectrum" banjo. After all it does have four strings and I can tune it to fifths if I wanted to!!

[steve V. johnson]

Many thanks to you all for your information and comments! #You've been most helpful, and so have the nice folks at the Banjo Hangout. #That joint
seems almost as nice a place, tho I haven't visited there very widely yet, as our dear Cafe. #Very nice folk, and they were very generous with help for me.

So... I made the decision. #I found that I could have geared tuners for the MBQ that fit the original 1/4" holes, but that I couldn't find any contemporary ones made to that standard (not to say that they don't exist...), tho Elderly used to carry them; #and I found out that Planetary-brand geared tuners were used on some banjos before WWII, and now the cost of a set of four starts at a bit over $100. # These don't seem terribly rare, I saw several sets available on eBay.

But what I chose was to use the contemporary 3/8" Planetary geared tuners that I had gotten from StewMac. #My good friend Dave McConnell, songwriter, singer and multi-instrumentalist of the Lopers, is also a fine woodworker, and he has enlarged the tuner shaft holes and installed the new ones, just today. #I also found some antiqued ivoroid buttons for the tuners at StewMac and they match the banjo much better. # Yes, I should have known to get the ivoroid buttons on the tuners in the first place... duh... but at $3 each it didn't hurt to order the ivoroid ones. #

Would anyone here like to have a set of the big pearly white ones?

I'll get the MBQ back from Dave's shop this weekend and I'll take some pix. #He says that the gear case comes very close to the edge of the headstock,
but doesn't go over. # When I heard from him he'd finished it but had not tuned the MBQ back up nor played it at all.

Now for some new strings... #I know nothing about strings for these things...

(ack!!! As the saying goes in Indiana, 'If it ain't one thing, it's another... and it's always sumpthin'...)

So, many thanks, again, to you all! Hooray!

stv