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Thread: "f" versus "a" models?

  1. #51
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    Dave, please keep us updated on the expected release date of your book. As a piano tuner especially interested in string physics (and historical temperaments), I'm sure it'll be a fascinating read.
    Wye Knot

  2. #52

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    I'm not forgetting anything but I'm not trying to write a book. Those photos show the F model plate resonating in a different manner on the scroll side as on the other side. The non-scroll side of the F model is more like an A. If we had an F hole A model the two side would be more symmetrical as with the oval.

    Put away your blinders. Look at the pictures.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Jkf_Alone @ May 27 2008, 12:30)
    - most of the better sites dont simply repeat the SAGA line (look at themandolinstore.com )
    I would love to feature mandos from other companies if I could find a distributor besides SAGA. Do you know of one?

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by (TomTyrrell @ May 27 2008, 07:44)
    Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.
    Okay, now we're just splitting hairs... the acoustic response from the F-model is pretty darn close to symmetrical, more-so than I thought it would be. The A model's response is definately not "exactly" symmetrical. look at the pictures again.

    I'm not trying to start a A vs. F battle here, and I thank you for introducing perhaps the most scientific piece of evidence to be found in this thread. All I'm saying is that if you examine the pictures and look at scroll side vs points side, they're pretty close to symmetrical. just as close as the A-model you showed, anyway. these photos have made me realize that people will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Just pick a style, play the darn thing and love it!
    "You may notice that I don't sound like Bill Monroe..." - Sam Bush

  5. #55
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    Time for a break guys. Let's not let this get out of hand.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by (techfiddle @ May 27 2008, 12:21)
    Quote Originally Posted by (Jkf_Alone @ May 27 2008, 12:30)
    - most of the better sites dont simply repeat the SAGA line (look at themandolinstore.com )
    I would love to feature mandos from other companies if I could find a distributor besides SAGA. Do you know of one?
    I gathered that this meant to not just repeat the "line" from the Saga product literature, but to write something more telling about each given instrument, the same way you have with the violins etc. on your site. This one is truly a step up from this one because...that kind of thing.
    Jason

    "Aerodynamically the bumblebee shouldn’t be able to fly, but the bumblebee doesn’t know that so it goes on flying anyway."

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  7. #57
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    Tom, it is one resonance. I've done hundreds of these images, maybe thousands by now. You can see differences like that in guitars with exactly the same body shape but slightly different bracing. For that mode, small differences in shape do not necessarily correspond readily to differences in modal frequencies. Note also that you are trying to compare three different modes in the three different images. The first image is of the "trampoline (0,0) mode at 278 and 345 Hz, the second is of the twisting (1,1) mode above 900 Hz, and the third is of the sideways rocking (1,0) mode around 500 Hz. Those are typical values for the frequencies of those respective modes in the types of mandolins shown. I have seen Fs with symmetric (0,0) modes, Fs with asymmetric (0,0) modes, As with symmetric (0,0) modes, and As with asymmetric (0,0) modes. It's just not a big deal. For a parallel example of this in a classical guitar, you might want to take a look at the following:

    Richardson, B.E.; "Simple Models as a Basis for Guitar Design", CAS Journal, Vol 4, No. 5 (Series II), May, 2002, pp 30-36.

    Consider also that if you were to make a very asymmetrically shaped mandolin (no scrolls or points, etc.) the mode shapes would still be global, i.e., they would all occupy the entire surfaces of the plates. So they would be very asymmetric. Consider also that each sample of wood is very inhomogeneous; I have even seen small differences like that in otherwise identically shaped mandolins.

    http://www.Cohenmando.com

  8. #58

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    connie, I'm just saying that you should not make the mistake that so many people have before. sell what you know, then once your established in that, then slowly add other items to truely see what works and what doesnt. its product mix and product spin that will make people come back.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by (MikeEdgerton @ May 27 2008, 14:02)
    Time for a break guys. Let's not let this get out of hand.
    true enough mike.

    I love mandolins, no matter what shape!
    "You may notice that I don't sound like Bill Monroe..." - Sam Bush

  10. #60
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (MikeEdgerton @ May 27 2008, 14:02)
    Time for a break guys. Let's not let this get out of hand.
    Exactly right -
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  11. #61

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    OK, I guess if you will believe an A model can resonate in an area of its top that doesn't EXIST you will believe the A and F have identical sounds.

    But why try to explain why they don't sound the same?

  12. #62
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    Well, I guess my decision -- since the difference in sound is not established, it seems -- is to get an A model, since I like the look more. And I want a black one with oval sound holes. The cheapest one SAGA has is the RM25S, which is $60. my price, but I don't want the cheapest one, I want the most expensive one they have, which in the black, A model with oval holes is their KM-171. My price on that is $200.

    Their most expensive instrument in the A model has F shaped sound holes, their Vintage Amberburst KM505. It's $100 more, or $300 my price.

    Had I better not get that one, despite my cosmetic inclination, because the sound will be that much better? Of course I'll take it and have it examined by a luthier as soon as I get it.

    Hmm.. of course if i'm going to go in that direction (away from my impulses), their most expensive F model is their KM1000, which is 1K my price. That sound is going to be so much better, right??

    I just don't want to make a stupid mistaken based on 0 knowledge, and get an instrument which I will end up giving away to another student at half what I paid for it, which is what I usually end up doing...


  13. #63
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    You're experienced with musical instruments. You should know that there is a difference in what you get based on what you pay. There is a reason that some mandolins cost more than others and it's not all cosmetic. Take a fact finding trip to someplace where they have at least some higher end mandolins and get a bit more of a hands on education. The Saga instruments you are looking at are entry level instruments. From what I gather from a Google search of your name you're a very experienced violinist. I'm sure you wouldn't be satisifed with the entry level Saga violins. If you're buying to see if you want to learn to play that's one thing, if you're buying to have an instrument to take you into the next level of playing then you might consider going a little higher in the Saga line.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  14. #64

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    I think Mike makes a good point, being an experienced player of other (presumably high quality) instruments, you may well not be satisfied with an entry level mandolin. Though I normally lean toward an A style nowadays, in your case since you can get it at wholesale pricing, I'd lean toward that KM1000 as it's the best thing they're making.
    Jason

    "Aerodynamically the bumblebee shouldn’t be able to fly, but the bumblebee doesn’t know that so it goes on flying anyway."

    Newell A5 #37, Glenn F5 #66, Eastman 615 #537,

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by (jasonh847 @ May 28 2008, 11:47)
    I think Mike makes a good point, being an experienced player of other (presumably high quality) instruments, you may well not be satisfied with an entry level mandolin. Though I normally lean toward an A style nowadays, in your case since you can get it at wholesale pricing, I'd lean toward that KM1000 as it's the best thing they're making.
    I think so, too.

    This question probably belongs somewhere else, but when you pluck a string, does it result in a double sound? Or when you use the pick, do you pluck both strings, or one?

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by (techfiddle @ May 28 2008, 11:56)
    Quote Originally Posted by (jasonh847 @ May 28 2008, 11:47)
    I think Mike makes a good point, being an experienced player of other (presumably high quality) instruments, you may well not be satisfied with an entry level mandolin. #Though I normally lean toward an A style nowadays, in your case since you can get it at wholesale pricing, I'd lean toward that KM1000 as it's the best thing they're making.
    I think so, too. #

    This question probably belongs somewhere else, but when you pluck a string, does it result in a double sound? #Or when you #use the pick, do you pluck both strings, or one?
    Generally, you strum both strings nearly simultaneously but I suppose you could just pick the one if you so desired.

    Standard tuning is to tune the pairs of strings the same (E A D G) so they should sound like one string when strummed together.
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  17. #67
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    Another advantage of going somewhere where you can try them out is to compare the F hole vs. oval hole sound. While we'll probably never agree on whether an F model and an A model are the same in sound, I think we can all easily agree on the difference between F hole and Oval hole. The F hole mandolin tends to have a sharper attack but much less sustain. It also projects the sound away (so what a listener hears 10' away is likely to be much louder than what the mandolinist hears). An oval hole, on the other hand tends to be warmer with much more sustain and more easily heard by the mandolinist. Re-reading this it sounds as though I favor oval holed mandolins, while in reality I prefer the tone from F holed mandolins. Both are good, but they are quite different.

    There's far more that can be said on that comparison, but you'll understand it better by playing and listening than by reading our descriptions.

    Regarding your question about the sound from the double strings, most of the time the mandolin is picked in a manner similar to a 12 string guitar so each pair of strings is picked as if one (though here the pairs of strings are all unison) That said, there are some occasions where the two strings are tuned differently and played either individually or as a double stop These are usually referred to as split strings or split string tuning.



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  18. #68

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    Connie --
    When I first got started on mandolin [having first played violin] -- my first impulse was to find a mandolin that I like the "looks of" and start shopping for one. I discovered that had I gone out and played a few of the instruments that I thought looked impressive, I would have not purchased any of them. Since my first purchase, I discovered that what really matters is the sound of the instrument.

    Since you are a SAGA line dealer, I'd recommend you find another retailer who represents the line, and go play some of the instruments, (or take another mandolin player with you play them) to help make your choice. One good thing about this, if you do decide to opt for a less expensive model, when you finally decide what's really important about how the instrument plays, you won't have too much invested. (Unlike me who has 4-5 instruments collecting dust in the house, and one good one that gets played all the time].

    At one point I was enamoured with an oval hole A and had it shipped. I quickly discovered that the sound wasn't anything that I expected, and money was spent shipping it back. It's really worth the time it takes to drive somewhere and play them first, even if it becomes a weekend adventure.

    Good luck.
    Sheryl --- Me

  19. #69
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    If you are a Saga dealer, you probably can access Kentucky mandolins (a Saga brand). They have a much wider range of models, including some quite top-line instruments -- "A" and "F" shapes, round-hole and f-hole models.

    Here's a link to a product summary page.
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  20. #70
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    The 380S is likely a nice mandolin and it's one you carry at your on-line store. You would have first-hand knowledge of your product line! You would also never need to sell it for much of a loss if you buy it at your price either. Matter of fact, couldn't you easily return anything that you take in inventory and don't sell (i.e., to yourself)?

    f-d
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by (allenhopkins @ May 28 2008, 21:43)
    If you are a Saga dealer, you probably can access Kentucky mandolins (a Saga brand). They have a much wider range of models, including some quite top-line instruments -- "A" and "F" shapes, round-hole and f-hole models.

    Here's a link to a product summary page.
    Correct; I have a few of these on my page at

    http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins

    I have 380S mentioned by the poster, above, among others, AND a link to the SAGA page, as well. Check my page.




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