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Thread: Gaspar sanz

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    Registered User Bussmando's Avatar
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    Some weeks ago I ran across a transcription of Gaspar Sanz' Canarios for mandolin. I had read through it a few times when it became time for the cleaning lady to come to the house. So, in cleaning up for the cleaning lady the music has been displaced. Alas, I did not save the pdf to my puter and did not make a copy. Does anyone know where I got it from?

    Bussmando

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I have a guitar edition downloaded from here.

    Quick search found these two threads:
    Canarios thread #1
    Canarios thread #2

    In thread #2 there is the link to the mandolin version in Sibelius/Scorch: link

    That is probably the one you had.
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    Registered User Bussmando's Avatar
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    Thanks Jim,

    I think this is the one.

    Buss

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I played thru the first part or so of this piece with the guitar version (previous link) side by side and something is not quite right with the mandolin version. I think there are notes missing in the second staff or something. It doesn't quite work. Did anyone else find that?

    Is that guitar version more correct? What instrument was it originally written for?

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    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    I think he composed for the 5 string guitar in the late 17th century, but I'm not sure about the tuning for the guitar he played.

    Here is a facsimile of the original tabulature from Jean-Fracois Delcamp's site:


    -John.
    Ah! must --
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    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ May 18 2008, 14:14)
    I played thru the first part or so of this piece with the guitar version (previous link) side by side and something is not quite right with the mandolin version. I think there are notes missing in the second staff or something. It doesn't quite work. Did anyone else find that?
    No, you're not mistaken, Jim ... at least not when I compare the mandolin arrangement with the copy of the guitar version I have (Union Musical Española). For some reason I could never get the guitar version on the website to load.

    Anyway, for starters the guitar version I have is 180 measures. The mandolin arrangement is only 64, and there aren't even any repeats which could otherwise account for some of the discrepancy. Quite a lot was cut out in the arrangement. I have heard this piece played so often on guitar (by others, not by me) that I personally don't feel it translates well to mando. Maybe it's just my prejudice showing, but there are some nice big chords in the guitar that simply cannot be done on mando. Still, it should be fun to play.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Not knowing much about classical guitar, I realized that after Alhambra, this is probably one of the more popular pieces for the budding guitarist to play. One of my favorite CDs is Julian Bream's Guitarra: The Guitar in Spain -- I hadn't listened to it in awhile and lo and behold there are 3 Sanz pieces including Canarios. I think that Bream plays it on a Baroque guitar. Perhaps this would translate better to a 5 or 6 course mandolino?
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    Michael Reichenbach
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    I had also found the mandolin version some time ago, and found, that this is very similar to the version that I play (I have written it down long time ago, must see if I find it and can add a scan of it).

    Anyway, although this is a famous piece of music, to me it is like a folk song, and I play it very freely and with as many repetitions as I like.

    To me the written version is missing repeats, maybe this was clear to someone in Sanz's time who knew this melody as a "Popsong" of that time.
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    Still some debate about Sanz's tuning, but it's generally accepted that for solo music, he advocated double reentrant tuning without bourdons on the 5-course guitar: i.e., a-a, d'-d', g-g, b-b, e'. That would make g, the same octave as the low g that is standard to modern mandolin, the lowest note on his guitar.

    There were a couple canarios in Sanz's book, and they are occasionally lumped together (as on Hopkinson Smith's Sanz CD, e.g.). My favorite period-instrument recording:
    Ferries, Gordon. 2005. La Preciosa: the guitar music of Gaspar Sanz (c.1640-c.1710). Delphian, DCD34036.

    A nice video of José Miguel Moreno on a reproduction 5-course guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQgPKVVMkZg




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  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ May 19 2008, 21:03)
    I think that Bream plays it on a Baroque guitar.
    Bream ordinarily played Sanz on modern, 6-string guitar. If he took up "period" instruments, it was usually modernized renaissance lutes.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Eugene @ May 21 2008, 17:51)
    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ May 19 2008, 21:03)
    I think that Bream plays it on a Baroque guitar.
    Bream ordinarily played Sanz on modern, 6-string guitar. If he took up "period" instruments, it was usually modernized renaissance lutes.
    The CD I have is from 1985 called Guitarra: The Guitar in Spain and has a rather silly picture on the front cover of Bream as a Spanish farmer (I guess). I can't believe he let them use this photo for this CD.

    In any case, here is the back of the booklet. Canarios is played on #3 of these instruments. The key on the booklet says that all these instruments were built by José Romanillos:
    1-Renaissance Guitar, 1984
    2-Vihuela, 1980
    3-Baroque guitar, 1983
    4-Classical guitar, 1972

    I saw him many years ago in the Kennedy Center in DC, prob early 1980s and he mostly played classical guitar and lute.



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    Weird. I can't see if it has five or six courses, but it does appear to sport a full compliment of bourdons.

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    I saw Bream in the mid 1990s. It was one of my favorite concert memories. He's always been amongst my heroes.

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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    Hello all. I am new to the Mandolin Cafe. I retired about a year ago and have revisited instruments that I used to play years ago; guitar and mandolin. The "mandolin" I now have a actually a concert ukulele tuned in 5th (CGDA.) I enjoy the music of Gaspar Sanz and play it on modern classical guitar and a modified guitalele (Cordoba Mini-M) with 5 strings to approximate a baroque guitar. I have also been transcribing the works of Sanz to mandolin tuning starting from "The Complete Guitar Works of Gaspar Sanz" by Robert Strizich. I have all of the works in Book I, "Ponteado Music" and all works in Book II. I have not researched copyright issues with these transcriptions, so I am willing, if allowed to post the pdfs or the TablEdit files on this site if there is interest.

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    Hello again; this is an update from my post of Sep 2020. I now have all of the Sanz pieces (all three books from Robert Strizich) transcribed for 4 course and 5 course mandolin. Anyone interested? Also, I have done the same thing for the complete works of Robert De Visee, again starting from the transcriptions for modern guitar by Strizich. Any interest in those? My 5 string "mandolin" is actually a Gretsch Tenor Guitalele with a modified nut for 5 strings.

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    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    I would love to see anything by Sanz transcribed for a regular GDAE four-course mandolin. Same with the Robert de Visée—I'm not familiar with his work, but late 17th century is good stuff!

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    I would also be interested in the Sanz transcriptions. I learned a few of his pieces on guitar and have adapted a couple (Pavanas--my favorite, and Canarios) for the mandolin, albeit somewhat inexactly. I learned them from Bream's LP, "Julian Bream: Baroque Guitar," which I think is a masterpiece, and I believe he's playing a modern six-string on that one, which is from 1966.

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    I should also disclose that I do not play mandolin, just ukuleles that are tuned in fifths. My four string "mandolin" is a concert ukulele tuned in fifths (cgda). Sanz's music (as well as De Visee's) was originally written for baroque guitar (5 courses, two strings for each course, tuned adgbe) and probably full reentrant tuning (no octave doubling of the lower two courses.) As such, the music is most appropriate for a fingerstyle playing technique like that used to play a baroque or classical guitar. Modern transcriptions for classical guitar assume standard guitar tuning (eadgbe) and do some octave doubling to make use of the low e string. My transcriptions for mandolin start from the baroque tuning without reentrant tuning. The music is most appropriate for fingerstyle playing as opposed to use of a pick as is done for mandolin. That being said, mandolin players have tackled these pieces in the usual mandolin playing style very effectively.

    An aside: As the baroque composers composed for baroque guitar with full reentrant (two lower strings (a and d) are an octave higher and a modern guitar) and single reentrant (lowest string only is an octave higher), the pieces lie well on the fingerboard of reentrant tuned ukuleles (usually soprano or concert ukuleles) and non-reentrant tuned ukuleles (usually baritone ukulele). However, the fifth tuned instruments have a different set of resonances that give a unique character to the music that I personally enjoy very much.

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    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    Your four-string concert uke tuned c-g-d-a is, of course, tuned like a mandola and like many tenor instruments (tenor guitar, banjo, etc.). Yes, I'd be interested in seeing this material. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    Yes, my concert is tuned like a mandola. As the tablature doesn't care how the instrument is tuned, I just end up playing the tablature with the piece playing a fifth lower than the mandolin. Luckily, my ear is OK with that. My 5 string tenor guitalele is tuned gdaeb (the lower 4 strings are an octave lower than a mandolin) so that is played in the correct key. I will post my transcriptions for 4 course mandolin as soon as I get the OK from the TablEdit forum.

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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    Hello all. I just got the word that Mandolin Cafe will not host my files; they didn't really give a good reason. I will not go into details here. Do any of you have suggestion as to what site may want to host these files?

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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    Quote Originally Posted by rdelyser View Post
    Hello all. I just got the word that Mandolin Cafe will not host my files; they didn't really give a good reason. I will not go into details here. Do any of you have suggestion as to what site may want to host these files?
    It's a shame. but there are alternatives, on sites like dropbox you can share files, or Windows Onedrive. Even here on the forum, you can share them directly and since they are uploaded to your account, they are permanent.
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    Thanks for the information on sharing files directly. As I am new to the mandolin cafe I do not know how to upload files to my account. Would you please let me know how to do that?

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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    I figured out how to share files directly in this forum. I will share my transcription of Sanz's Canarios in G now. If anyone is interested in any other of Sanz's complete works for baroque guitar transcribed for mandolin, just let me know.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Default Re: Gaspar sanz

    Quote Originally Posted by rdelyser View Post
    I figured out how to share files directly in this forum. I will share my transcription of Sanz's Canarios in G now. If anyone is interested in any other of Sanz's complete works for baroque guitar transcribed for mandolin, just let me know.
    Sorry for the delay in responding, but yes, that's how files are uploaded. regards!
    Music washes away from the soul the dust of every-day life. Auerbach.
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