Ceccherini

[girldingo]

Well, Umberto C. arrived yesterday and I savored opening the box for a few hours. The mandolin was ensconced inside a very old rectangular case that had pretty much fallen apart. The mandolin was as depicted in the photos. A bit grimy, spruce top kind of dried out but to my novice eye looked in good shape. The strings had been on for at least a year and since I haven't received the Lenzner Consorts yet, I tuned it up and started to play. The strings sounded kind of tinny and without vibrancy - kind of dead. I hope the new strings will change that. The tuners work fine - that's good.
When I checked the octave at the 12th fret - all the courses except for one were fine. Oddly, one of the D strings at the 12th fret has no sound, it just plinks and doesn't register a pitch - that was too weird. The other D string is perfect at the 12th fret. Does anyone have any ideas on why this should happen? I'm going to bring it to a luthier next week to set it up....but, I must say it's the strangest thing to see and hear.

Ilene

[Acquavella]

Hi Ilene,

Congrats on receiving your new bowlback. The intonation probem you are describing is because the strings are dead. When the life of your strings start to diminish the "pair" won't stay in tune with eachother as you venture up the neck. Once you put the Lenzners on there all will be good. Have fun.

[guitharsis]

Congrats girldingo!
When you bring it to your luthier for setup and it has new strings, you'll love the sound.
Enjoy!!

[girldingo]

Thanks for your replies. I feel reassured about the mandolin and will keep you all posted when the new strings are on.

Ilene

[brunello97]

Ilene, of course, you know, we would love to see some photos when you have it all set up. Either here or in the bowlbacks of note thread.

Mick

[Bob A]

I have no doubt you'll enjoy this mandolin.

It occurs to me that the top may well be unvarnished; several of my Italian instruments have either no finish or a very thin sealer coat (I can't tell which) on the soundboard. Don't let your luthier talk you into an overvarnish. Spruce will oxidise a bit over the decades, and a bit of grunge may be introduced by the player (present company excepted, I'm sure), but this serves to add a bit of character. Once varnish is applied, the instrument has been irrevocably altered, not necessarily for the better.

I assume your instrument has the double soundboard?

[JeffD]

can we get some pictures?

[Martin Jonas]

Ilene -- good to hear your Ceccherini has arrived safely. Just to confirm what Bob has said: the soundboard on Ceccherini's instruments (as on many, if not most, other old Italian bowlbacks) is unfinished and should remain so. You can clean up surface grime by dabbing with a very slightly damp lint-free cloth, but it is normal for the soundboard to have darkened, sometimes dramatically so, if it has spent much time outside its case and exposed to daylight. As many bowlbacks have spent time hanging on walls or in display cabinets somewhere over the last 110 years, this is common and part of the aging process. It doesn't affect tone.

Not sure what's going on with the D-course, and I suspect there is a setup issue beyond just putting on new strings -- possibly a loose fret, or a dodgy bridge slot. Try changing strings first, and if that doesn't resolve it, look closer at the setup. Ceccherinis have a number of unusual features -- including the bridge and nut construction -- which will need to be taken into consideration when checking the setup.

Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you need to run somthing past another Ceccherini owner!

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Congratulations, Ilene, on your new addition! I can't recall... is this your first bowlback?

[girldingo]

I appreciate all of your replies and advice regarding Umberto C. #Regarding the D course - it's not both strings, only one and only on the 12th fret - you go to the 13th fret and it's perfect - the other D string is fine. #I haven't received the new strings yet.
This instrument hasn't been on the wall, but hiding out in a closet for 35 years....I believe without strings.

No, this isn't my first bowl back...I used to have an American Conservatory that was quite lovely and that I've sold. #In the space of the past 3 weeks, I've bought a Martin bowlback #2 and the Ceccherini. #My main player is a Lyon & Healy C, but I have a feeling that will change once the Italian has been coaxed out of his closet.

Can anyone recommend a bowlback luthier? #I live in the San Francisco bay area - in the East Bay.

Ilene

[girldingo]

Here's a photo of Umberto C's face.

I.I.

[Bob A]

My Ceccherini has a silver nut/zero fret combo, and a silver bridge saddle. What's your nut look like? (And does it have double sound board and string trees between bridge and tailpiece?).

[girldingo]

Yes, it does have a double sound board and the string trees (they're kind of like spacers between the strings). The nut looks like brass and I'm not sure what a zero fret is. Here's another photo.

[Bob A]

Thanks for the response. A zero fret is a fret placed just after the nut. The idea is that the open string rests on a metal fret instead of the nut, making for a similarity of tone whether played open or fretted. My Ceccherinis have a combination nut and zero fret - all one piece of metal. Other mandolins like Emberghers have a regular nut which just serves as a string spacer, and an actual fret on which the open string sits.

[Martin Jonas]

Ilene --

Thanks for the photos. It looks very similar in the style of the inlays and overall look to the less-ornamented of my two Ceccherinis (I think it is also the older one), except that mine is a very rare single-top model, whereas yours is Umberto's more characteristic double-top design. Does yours have super-thin bone tuner buttons, too? I love those on mine!

If the instrument has been effectively unplayed for 35 years, it will take a few months of regular playing to wake up -- don't judge it too early. Your tailpiece is non-original, but as long as it is functional, that shouldn't matter.

As Bob has said, Ceccherini used metal saddles (brass on the lower-ornamented models, like yours, and silver on the higher ones). Your photo looks like a bone saddle. That's not necessarily a bad thing -- I've replaced the saddle on mine with a compensated bone saddle as well -- but it's not original and will sound slightly differently. Also, it means that you probably shouldn't assume that the saddle is setup correctly.

The photo below shows the original metal saddle on mine, in the condition in which I received it. The bridge had one of the ebony spacers missing, but that shows better how the metal bit goes. The silver is a bit tarnished in the photo, but polished up nicely to a high shine.


The D-string trouble does sound like a problem with that fret -- maybe the 12th fret is too low or the 13th too high, so that when you fret the 12th, the string is dampened by contact with the 13th.

Regarding the nut, this is probably best shown in a photo. Below are the fretboards of two of my bowlbacks, both with brass nuts. On top is a typical de Meglio nut. As you can see, there are two separate pieces of brass. The taller of them is a slotted string spacer, and the shorter one is the actual zero fret which is unslotted and provides the clean edge for the vibrating string. At the bottom is a Ceccherini nut. As you can see, this is one single piece of brass, but it still works ecactly like the de Meglio nut: the taller edge, facing the headstock, is slotted and acts as a string spacer, and the lower edge, facing the bridge, is smooth and acts as the zero fret. The important thing about this nut is that it works on a different principle from a conventional bone nut without zero fret, and a repair person or luthier who doesn't appreciate this may cause it to intonate wrongly or to sound bad.



Regarding repair people in the San Francisco area, why not contact Paul Hostetter, or Frank Ford?

Martin

[Eugene]

Awesome and enjoy!

[Jim Garber]

Can anyone recommend a bowlback luthier? I live in the San Francisco bay area - in the East Bay.

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "bowlback luthier" tho I know quite a few with frontal bowls.

In any case, I would check in with Paul Hostetter, who p[opsts pretty often on this board. I think he is in SF. if not he can recommend someone. The only other person I know of would be
Frank Ford but i think he may be further away.

[brunello97]

Can anyone recommend a bowlback luthier? #I live in the San Francisco bay area - in the East Bay.

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "bowlback luthier" tho I know quite a few with frontal bowls.

Wow, you are looking for trouble here, J. # ##I know Frank and Pablo both to be very fit luthiers.......(Who would no doubt enjoy have a Ceccherini to work on-it would be great to have their commentary on any repair/restoration work as well. Here's hoping.)

Mick

[girldingo]

Man oh man! What an education I'm getting! Thank you all for your discourse and especially to Martin for the great photo comparisons.

I have contacted a luthier who is very close to my house; his name is Chris Berkov and came highly recommended. He worked on my friend's Embergher and Vinaccia and thus has that "Bowlback Seal of Approval". As soon as I receive the Lenzner strings, I will be taking Umberto for his physical.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.

Ilene and Umberto C

[girldingo]

Hi all,

I've got my Ceccherini back from the luthier; it sounds quite lovely - very resonant full tone. He had to replace 2 frets, make a new saddle and alas - he said that someone had filed down the brass zero fret and that it wasn't usable, so he replaced it with a bone nut. I have the brass spacer/nut and the fret part does look clipped off at the end. I really like the Lenzner strings on it and have been playing it at orchestra rehearsals doing some modern mandolin compositions - which require me to play in 6th position. Although, the freboard is shorter than I'm used to, I'm able to play all that I need to.

Is there a way to date the mandolin? On the label inside - it mentions an award given in 1881. I'm assuming that isn't the date of this mandolin - is there somewhere else I should be looking.

Here's a photo of the mandolin in it's new Eastman blue case - way kewl!

Ilene

[guitharsis]

Very nice! My Ceccherini is resonant with full tone too. It's all original and has the brass zero fret. It sounded great with the Lenzner strings but also sounds good with the Calace strings it has on it now.

The label signed by Umberto also has the 1881 date.

The Eastman case is really nice!

Congrats and enjoy.

Doreen

[Martin Jonas]

Is there a way to date the mandolin? #On the label inside - it mentions an award given in 1881. #I'm assuming that isn't the date of this mandolin - is there somewhere else I should be looking.

Ilene,

Good to hear that your Ceccherini is now sound and healthy. #From what you write, it seems a previous owner/repairer had not understood the working principle of the brass nut and has destroyed it. #The bone nut without zero fret should be fine (Vinaccias have them), or else you could have a de Meglio-like zero fret to match the original tone without having to rework the intricate original nut. #Is the new saddle bone or brass? #Again, brass is the original, but bone should work fine with a relatively minor alteration of tone.

The 1881 award is listed on all Ceccherini labels, but (as you rightly suspect) has nothing to do with the age of the mandolin. #Umberto didn't put dates on his mandos, and only put serial numbers on very few of them (I suspect those produced in later years). #I also do not have any biographical data for him. #

This being so, one has to rely for dating purposes on various incidental indications, such as:

1) Clearly, Umberto was already building in 1881.

2) All Ceccherinis I have ever seen were distributed exclusively by the firm of Alban Voigt in London, suggesting that he simply boxed up his entire output and shipped them by the crate from Naples to London. #We know that the great concert soloist Leopoldo Francia played exclusively Ceccherini mandolins. #We also know that Francia became prominent in Italy by winning the Genoa concourse in 1892 and then toured worldwide, eventually settling in London in 1895. #He was a great sensation in London, and taught extensively (mainly to lady students in high society). #The inference seems pretty straightforward that the Alban Voigt/Ceccherini linkup could only have occurred after 1895, and that the reason all his instruments were shipped to the UK was the demand created by Francia's personal endorsement.

3) There are variations in scratchplate design and other ornamentation between instruments. #Some of these are likely to indicate price levels (from relatively simple to very ornate) and others likely to indicate historical evolution/fashion. #Difficult to differentiate the two, but I can say that there are some Ceccherinis with distinctly Art Nouveau flowing designs which contrast quite strongly with more numerous and rather more structured designs. #I would think it's safe to say that the Art Nouveau ones are the later ones, and likely to date from around 1905 to 1910. #That would leave the other ones earlier than that, i.e. between 1895 and, say, 1905. #Yours is in that category, as are both of mine.

4) Of my two Ceccherinis, one is plainer and smaller-bowled than the other, and has a somewhat older-seeming style of ornamentation, and an older-seeming tuner plate/button design. #This leads me to believe that it is the older one, although it is also possible that it was simply cheaper. #Yours is closely similar in the style of ornamentation to that plainer of my two, and if I'm right in my gut feeling, that would make it towards the earlier part of the above range.

5) So, all taken together, I think yours is likely to date from between 1895 and 1900.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

I think I recall a phrase on a label, something to the effect of "1st Prize Winner, 1881 Award, Such-and-Such City". I believe, that is, that the date indicates some important recognition Sr. Ceccherini received, not anything pertaining to the instrument(s) the label is affixed on. I am sure that Alex can easily do me one up on this, with his vastly more extensive AND precise knowledge of such things.

Maybe it was Marca Premiata, or something of the sort...