Jam freeze snobbery

[gnelson651]

In the Mando snobbery post are situations regarding comments made by jammers to others regarding their low on the food chain mandolins.

Has anyone experienced being pushed out of a jam circle? What happens is the one or more of the jammers will start to move closer and literally push you out of the circle because you're not up to their playing standards.

That do you do in this type of situtation?

Its happen to me on several occasions. My response is to stay in the cirlce or shove my way back in. I'm too tenacious to let someone spoil my fun by trying to push me out.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's never happened to me but then again, I'd never let it happen to me.

[Tom C]

Heck yeah,But not because of somebody's abilities.I find this happens alot at festivals -usually at our own hosting too. In between songs I have no problem asking everybody to take a step back. I see this happening to myself as well as others. Funny thing is, it seems to be caused when everybody is playing too loud or playing over each other where people are getting closer just to hear somebody's break.

[Khmando]

Yeah, I've had that happen. I was sitting down and the guy next to me says to the cirlce, "Hey do you guys know such-and-such a song?" He proceeded to get up and stand directly in front me, so his butt was in my face, and started showing the song to everybody else in the circle. The others in the circle looked at me sheepishly, but no one said anything. I was too shocked to know how to react. I just ended up getting up and going to another circle.

[John Rosett]

I Had a guy leave his spot in the circle to stand directly in front of me, and play very loudly when my turn came up. I believe that I played a note that really bothered him in the previous song. He was half again bigger than me, so I just smiled and shrugged. This was my wife's first festival, and she asked me if this is what people did. I told her that only the threatened and insecure players acted that way.

[TomTyrrell]

Has anyone ever had a situation where one guy was ruining the jam for everyone by trying to play out of his league?

It is all a matter of perspective.

[earthsave]

If I am out of my league, I tend to not play but just listen. Heck, I generally just stand around and listen before I even get my instrument out of the case to decide if I think I can hang with the group. If I get offered to join or have joine and get the nod for a break, I'll take it or shake it off.

[MikeEdgerton]

Has anyone ever had a situation where one guy was ruining the jam for everyone by trying to play out of his league?

It is all a matter of perspective.

I don't see a person trying to play above themselves as playing out of their league. I think f5loar made a good point about this int he other thread.

[John Rosett]

One year at Weiser, we were having a late night (early morning) jazz jam. I had to leave my chair and go to the "blue room". A woman that had been standing next to me listening to us asked if she could play my mandolin, and I handed it to her and walked away. When I returned, everybody except her was playing some slow jazz tune in E flat. She, however, was playing a fiddle tune in D. I hadn't realized that she was really drunk when I handed her the mandolin. My friends saw that I was back, and started giving me "the look", hoping that I would jump in and take it away from her. At first, I wanted to help, but felt a little awkward about just grabing it from her. After a minute though, the humor of it struck me, so I just waited til they ended the song. They were a little peeved at first, but now everybody remembers it as funny.

[Caleb]

I've been following the "snobbery" thread and after reading this one it makes a guy like me (who's never been to a "jam") never want to do so. Music is supposed to be fun...that's why it's called 'playing', right?

I guess I don't get what all the competition and ego stuff is about? Is this attitude unique to Bluegrass circles, or are there jerks in every jam session out there?

[MikeEdgerton]

I've seen the same jerks in the rock and blues world. They are everywhere.

[Khmando]

while there can be jerks everywhere, there are also tons of really nice people. For every bad jam experience I've had, I've had 50 great ones. Don't be discouraged. Its actually great to go to jams. You learn a lot. I've also met people at jam sessions that ended up being really good friends.

[Chip Booth]

Caleb, people are people, and you may find disrespectful musicians in any situation, just like you do at work, home, church, anywhere. Don't let it keep you away though. My bad experiences are few and far between, and the pleasure of playing with people far outways the complications.

Chip

[MikeEdgerton]

When you hit a jam that's magic, everything falls into place. That has nothing to do with your level of playing. It's about the friendship and the joy of making music. That can happen with folks that have played for years and folks that are just starting out. I recall one of the Picking in the Park jams that the Bluegrass and Oldtime Music Association of New Jersey put on last year where there was a good size jam going with players of many levels. It was good but after the more experienced players stopped to step off to the side and talk and have some lunch and the newer players got into a circle it became magical. You could see the joy on the faces of the players and the music was quite respectable as well. When it's right it's right.

[lgc]

"I've been following the "snobbery" thread and after reading this one it makes a guy like me (who's never been to a "jam") never want to do so. Music is supposed to be fun...that's why it's called 'playing', right?

I guess I don't get what all the competition and ego stuff is about? Is this attitude unique to Bluegrass circles, or are there jerks in every jam session out there?"


I don't really think it is necessarily about ego or competition. If you have a group of proficient pickers who are having a ton of fun playing music they love and someone comes along who messes up the rhythm, sing and plays out of tune way too loud, and is totally oblivious to this it can ruin the whole deal. I'm not saying I've ever done what is being discussed but I have moved a BG jam into G# for a long time.

[Jonathan Peck]

What's the big deal? I just make a note of the people that I want to stay away from....and then I stay away from them. Another other option is to stand your ground and say something. I guess a third option would be to say nothing, get offended, let them ruin your night, and then go on the internet and tell a thousand of your closest friends that you don't actually know.

[midmando]

Mike, that's really true. #Another thought is that a player who's too good to play with a lesser player probably isn't as good as he thinks he is. #Time and again I've seen a master musician sit with average players and raise the sound of the whole group. #Not by showing off, but by supplying whatever's lacking - hard to explain but amazing when you see it.

[barry k]

We go to 10-12 festivals a year , and camp with 3 or 4 of the same pickers each time. Our standing, unspoken policy is to invite ALL to pick and usually works out well. Last week, at a festival we had a dynamite jam going, to include a 70 year old, great old tyme fiddler. Well, about an hour into it, a beginner fiddler walks up, sits down with fiddle ready, next to the other fiddler, univited might I add, and within 1 song OUR jam became a fiddle tune workshop between the 2 of them that quickly dissassembled the good thing we had going. Jam ended up being a guitar and two fiddles for the next 2 hours. What do you do in this situation? I dont think we were being snobbery, our ears just hurt, we couldnt stand the endless sawing ! ! !

[MikeEdgerton]

Barry, to be honest it doesn't sound like the newcomer was the total problem. I would think the old timer should have stepped the youngin off to the side if he wanted to give a fiddle lesson.

[8ch(pl)]

I stopped visiting a chat room on a well known music site due to nasty things people seemed to want to post. I felt i didn't need this snobery.

this is why I like the Cafe. There isn't this vein of thinking. We're really here to share our music experience. Nobody should feel the need to apologise for the mandolin they play, nor for their playing ability. Should be the same at Jams and Festivals.

[EdSherry]

The "one big circle" approach common in bluegrass jams has the disadvantage that, if it gets too big, people often can't hear folks on the other side of the circle. #I play a lot of Irish sessions where the unspoken rule is to have people crowd in closer together so that everyone can hear, even if that means that some folks are on "the inside" and others are on "the outside." #Then again, in ITM the aesthetic is "everybody plays the melody together" rather than the "everybody gets a solo break" aesthetic common to bluegrass jams, so the two situations are very different.

I fully agree that it can be rude not to include everyone in the music. #Over the years, I've led many a jam session trying to make sure that everyone has a chance at "their turn" to play a break and to call a tune, rather than letting the fastest-off-the-blocks monopolize the playing. #And I've often suggested widening a circle so that everybody can participate.

Conversely, there are times when I simply want to play with a bunch of my friends on a high-caliber level, albeit in a public place. #I know that I sometimes get peeved when less-than-competent players insist on joining in and playing more loudly than their abilities warrant, apparently on the theory that "it's all good" or "jams should be open to everyone."

I know everyone had to start somewhere. #But for many years I played quietly on the outside of the circle so as not to interfere with others' enjoyment of the music they were making (and that I was enjoying too).

I'm not sure that there is a one-size-fits-all solution. #I suspect that we'd all agree that snobbery is bad. #Unfortunately, so is the practice by some clueless players of intruding in such a way that ruins things for others.

[gnelson651]

Just a little aside, when I approach a jam circle, I'll stand to the side and either watch or play quietly. I will only join in if so invited. Sometimes if the partcipants in the jam are way above my level, I graciously decline. When I'm in a jam, I try not to play too loudly, over the singer or soloist or not play at all if I don't know the chords to a particular song.

While I'm not a hot player by any means, I can play a simple melody or improvise enough so it sounds OK. What I find happens at the closing jam circle, is that some players, once they hear you're not up to their speed, will try to edge you out. I have other players complain about the same thing, especially about one group of jammers.

[MikeEdgerton]

Just a little aside, when I approach a jam circle, I'll stand to the side and either watch or play quietly. I will only join in if so invited. Sometimes if the partcipants in the jam are way above my level, I graciously decline. When I'm in a jam, I try not to play too loudly, over the singer or soloist or not play at all if I don't know the chords to a particular song.

Can't fault that, that is the way it should be.

[TomTyrrell]

If you aren't up to their speed why don't you just step back from the circle and save them the trouble? If you can't keep up you aren't going to fit in.

When you approach an already existing jam you need to take a moment and find out what they are doing. Then you need to do that. Or you could start your own jam...

[mrmando]

Ever wonder what the sharp point in the center of an F-style headstock is good for?

It's better than an elbow when you need to reopen your spot in a jam circle.

I sat down with my tenor guitar in a swing jam at Wintergrass for a while, just to see if I could keep up. I wasn't picking up all the changes, so I tried to play very quietly when comping. They did let me try a few solos, some of which were OK. If I do join a jam that's over my head, I try to be as unobtrusive as possible.