Intonation problems ?

[c3hammer]

If the open string and the 12th fret are dead on, its way sharp on the first fret.

Here are the rough numbers at the first fret vs. the open strings:

G = 8 cents sharp
D = 18 cents sharp
A = 10 cents sharp
E = 7 cents sharp

It then gets progressively better as I move toward the 7th fret. #I have this problem on every mandolin I own it seems. #I'm very confident that the nut and bridge slots are very good and not chipped.

I know it's not possible to have every fret on every string perfect all the way up the board, but this one just sounds aweful and it's driving me crazy. #A simple 2 finger D chord, fretting the second fret on the G and E courses with the D and A open is unbearable.

I think the end of the fingerboard is too long between the nut and the first fret, but I just want to confirm I'm thinking this through correctly before I start removing material.

Does anyone have a link to the fret calculator website? #I had that formula and a web link in my notes at one point, but can't seem to find it now.

Cheers,
Pete

[billhay4]

Here
Be very careful here. Measure all the fret distances. Could be your fingerboard is off.
Bill

[John Flynn]

You can also change the position of the bridge or even do some work on the individual bridge segments to where you have a better "average intonation." I have often thought that the "standard" of intonation being "on" at the 12th fret to not be as relevant as it could be, since I don't play up there a lot. I have tried setting mine as being "on" at the 7th or even the 5th fret. The idea is to get a better "average" across the fretboard.

Before you start cutting into your fretboard, you might do some online reading on the Buzz Feiten tuning system. That system attempts to create more accurate intonation by creating a compensated nut. I have heard the system works. It just may not be worth the money Feiten charges. The only mando luthier I know who uses it is Dan McRostie, who builds the "Red Diamond" mandolins.

[duuuude]

Could it possibly be your nut being a tad high and causing you to stretch the strings a bit more when fretting, than farther up the fretboard where the strings take less pressure to fret?

[sunburst]

A tad? 18 cents sharp sounds like more than a tad high to me.
There was a similar question recently, I'll see if I can find the thread and post a link.

Here it is, that was easier than I thought!

[c3hammer]

Now I'm really confused. That calculator says for a 14.1" scale length that it should be 7.050" to the 12th fret. My set up is at 6.950" from the nut to the 12th fret and where I get the 12th fret harmonic and tune to be right on.

All the fret distances from the nut correlate to a 13.900" scale length perfectly according to the link above, yet it's so far off with the bridge there that it's unplayable. The nut to the first fret is actually 0.780" which correlates perfectly to a 13.9" scale length on the calculator.

Regardless of where I put the bridge the first few frets are way sharp. The second is actually worse than the first fret.

My action height is fine I believe. If I fret between the 2nd and 3rd frets the strings miss the first fret by just a couple thousands of an inch. The string height at the 12th fret is about 1.75mm as a 1.5mm pick slides in without touching and a 2mm pick touches both the strings and the frets.

What am I doing wrong here? What does every one else's mandolins do when fretted on the first through third frets?

Cheers,
Pete

[sunburst]

Unless you have an unusual or a classical mandolin, the scale length is 13 7/8" (13.875).
Adjusting the bridge position has very little affect on the intonation of the first few frets; so little that we can say the bridge position has nothing to do with the intonation on the first few frets, if it's anywhere close to correct.
If you find that the fret spacing is accurate, that leaves the nut as the problem.
Click the link above and read the thread. Everything that could be wrong with the nut is in there.

[Jim Broyles]

Here is some great information on nut action. Sounds like your nut slots are a little too shallow. This can be remedied very easily by an experienced luthier, or by a fairly handy owner/player with a set of nut files.

[Slim Pickins]

On the intonation question. My G is right on at the 12th,
D is 20 Cents high.
A is 10 Cents high
E is 10 cents high.

Why would the D string be 20 cents high. What would be the recommendation? Thanks

[sunburst]

You can probably nudge the E side of the bridge back toward the tailpiece until the A and E are good, then "tweek" the D by filing the front part of that section of the saddle toward the tailpiece.

[c3hammer]

Thanks sunburst for the link to that thread. Any suggestions as to why the nut would need to be 0.012" - 0.015" closer to the first fret to get good intonation?

Can you measure where the 1st, 12th and bridge are for me when their open G and fretted at the 12th ring true on one of your mando's? I'm interested to see if everyone's is off vs. the scale length the frets slots are cut for, or if this is just my mando here.

jbmando, This issue has nothing to do with the action at the nut. It's perfect, as are the nut slots. This is an intonation issue. The frets on the finger board are set up for a 13.9" scale length. The top center of every fret is within a few thousandths of where it should be for that scale length.

In order to get the harmonic and the 12 fret to tune with the open string the bridge needs to be a tad over 14" from the nut. I've checked this out with both my Intelitouch and a Seiko chromatic tuner.

Again if anyone can check their instruments actual measurements for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Pete

[markishandsome]

This issue has nothing to do with the action at the nut. It's perfect, as are the nut slots.

If your nut were perfect your nut wouldn't be having intonation problems. Having the action too high at the nut would give you the exact problem you have. What's perfect about it?

Who mode your mandolin? If it's a production model the scale length is 13.875, not 13.9. What are you using to measure these distances?

[Jim Broyles]

jbmando, This issue has nothing to do with the action at the nut. It's perfect, as are the nut slots. This is an intonation issue. The frets on the finger board are set up for a 13.9" scale length. The top center of every fret is within a few thousandths of where it should be for that scale length.

Well, incorrectly filed nut slots produces an intonation issue.

[Doug Hoople]

Any suggestions as to why the nut would need to be 0.012" - 0.015" closer to the first fret to get good intonation?

It's called "end effect," and I've heard discussions on this topic over the years. I first heard the term from Don MacCrostie, but he's certified in the "Buzz Feiten" system, so he's mum on the particulars except to say that it exists.

Essentially, when you press a string down onto a fret, the string stretches a bit. This stretching occurs on both the working side of the string and the dampened side going back to the nut. At the frets close to the nut, there's a lot of force required to press the nut side of the string down. That extra force translates to "sympathetic" stretch on the working portion of the string.

This effect can be observed on most stock mandolins, and can only be minimized, but not eliminated entirely (in fact, in an even-tempered tuning system, by definition, all intervals are slightly and equally out of tune).

It's almost always worst on the A string, and especially so for D'Addario J74s, where the string tension for the A is substantially out of skew from the rest of the strings. I'll tune my A string one or two cents flat as a rule to soften the effect of this. I've also taken the A string out of a set of J75s and replaced the A in the J74s, and the intonation is almost always better when I do that.

The only thing you can do is try to average it all out. I believe that in the "Buzz Feiten" system, the octaves are all a little flat, but I don't know the particulars.

[c3hammer]

It's called "end effect," and I've heard discussions on this topic over the years. #I first heard the term from Don MacCrostie, but he's certified in the "Buzz Feiten" system, so he's mum on the particulars except to say that it exists.
<snip of some good stuff>

Thanks Doug! #That's what I was looking for. #

I checked my Weber Absorka and it does the same thing though only about 5 or 6 cents. #The Webers are supposed to be a 14" scale length, but to get the 12th fret intonation correct on that one, the bridge is about 14 3/16" from the nut. #

I am using some 12" calipers to measure my Vessel/Soltis mando, so the numbers are pretty good. #I don't have any long enough to reach the bridge, but a nice ruler is good enough for that one.

I'll have to read up on the Buzz Feiten technique. #Sounds interesting.

I'm still interested in seeing what other folks mandolins measure to the bridge vs. what the actual fret scale length is. #That's a new on on me that I hadn't seen before.

Cheers,
Pete

[sunburst]

The same stretching of the strings that Doug mentioned necessitates the bridge sitting farther than the theoretical scale length from the nut, and farther from the 12th fret than the simple math would indicate. It's called compensation. When the strings stretch as you stop them against the frets, the string tension increases and the note becomes sharp. Moving the bridge farther from the nut compensates for the stretching so that the frets note close to in tune. Strings of different gauge and tension require more or less compensation, and that's why a "standard" Loar style mandolin bridge saddle has the stair-steps.

The actual measured distance from the nut to the bridge on mandolins with a 13 7/8" scale will vary with string gauge and action height, so they will not all be the same.

[Michael Lewis]

Pete, what strings are you using? Are they old or new? We need more information regarding the instrument: who made it, which goes to the question whether it is a hand cut finger board or a production part. How much relief does it have? It is not so easy to diagnose an instrument that is not in front of me, so we all take shots at what the problem might be.

There is another company, EARVANA, that makes compensated nuts. It might help to read some of the stuff they have on their web site.

[c3hammer]

I'm using some GHS A250's that are about a week old. The fingerboard is from StewMac. The fingerboard has very little relief.

It seems that all the mando's I've looked at have this same issue. Maybe I'm just being too particular, but I've really been noticing it when playing a bunch of double stops with open strings in odd ball keys down there on first two frets or so.

Cheers,
Pete

[Phil Goodson]

I've used the Earvana products on guitars with great success. So I believe the concept is valid.

Heavy-handed players like me make things worse. I almost always press the strings too hard, thus causing intonation problems which are worse near the nut. It also causes me to have sore fingers most of the time. (I'm working on it.)

I know your nut is "perfect"; does that mean it's as low as it can be without buzzing? Cause a high slot means pressing harder and messing with the intonation.

Also, I think your point about pickiness is valid in that some people actually DO hear the "off" notes more easily and are more bothered by them. [and there's nothing wrong with that! -Seinfeld]

Good luck.
Phil

[Doug Hoople]

It seems that all the mando's I've looked at have this same issue. #Maybe I'm just being too particular, but I've really been noticing it when playing a bunch of double stops with open strings in odd ball keys down there on first two frets or so.

Yes. #Nearly all mandolins have this problem. #I've read posts from people who claim to have zero intonation problems on their instruments, but I frankly don't believe them. #

There are many things that can be done to minimize it, but it will always be there to some extent. #As already noted on this thread, you can seek a set of averages through bridge placement and bridge compensation. #

If you want to get crazy, you can experiment with fretboards that move the lower frets a smidgeon closer to the nut. #But beware that the end effect is different for each guage of string, so a perfect fret position for the A string could be less-than-perfect for the G, D and E, for example. #And the end effect will differ with different sets of strings as well, and when it's fret placement that you're messing with, it then becomes a major commitment to change to another kind of strings. #Ultimately, though, this strategy has the same disadvantage as all the other averaging strategies, namely that you can get closer, but you can't make the problem go away.

The compensated nut is also a worthy avenue of experimentation, since the quirks of individual strings can be taken into account, and a nut is an easy thing to replace. #

There's one other approach you can take, and it will make you crazy to contemplate it at first, but it might actually have legs. #An "authentic" instrument will have this problem. #The recordings of the legends that we love so much have this problem. #The sound of a mandolin in the wild features the out-of-tune end effect. #So it could simply be that playing out of tune is part of the sound of mandolins that we've encoded into our collective DNA, and that "correcting" that sound so that it's more "perfectly" even tempered will lead us away from an authentic sound. #

Thus, once you've fiddled around with bridge placement and compensation to make things "pretty good," you should wallow in the glorious authentic sound of slightly sharp notes in the lower frets, safe in the knowledge that you sound more like the greats than if you "perfected" your intonation.

[DrJBone]

In the last year or so, I've been noticing intonation problems more and more, even on high end instruments. It's been driving me a little nuts. I've all but sworn off most chording. I think it would help to play in an ensemble, but I do most of my playing alone. I'm going to have to look into those compensated nuts. I bought a set of files just last week and intend to destroy a couple nuts in effort to improve the intonation on my mandolin.

[c3hammer]

Just for reference here's a pic of the nut and action when fretting between the 2nd and 3rd frets. #If you look closely you can see that I have two sheets of paper under the nut in this pic. #These were to test the effect a higher action. #If I take the paper strips bacl out the action just barely clears the first fret, but none of them actually touch.

How fragile is a bone nut like this if I were to make one that overhangs the fretboard by 0.015" or so, like the buzz freitin or earvana? #It seems like it would be rather thin right over the fretboard.

cheers,
Pete

[Phil Goodson]

At least for testing purposes, it might be easier to wedge in a bit of zero fret under the most offending strings.

Phil

[alt_2ooning]

>>>light gauge GHS A250's , 010 015 024W 036W

If the open string and the 12th fret are dead on, its way sharp on the first fret.

The frets on the finger board are set up for a 13.9" scale length. The top center of every fret is within a few thousandths of where it should be for that scale length.

In order to get the harmonic and the 12 fret to tune with the open string the bridge needs to be a tad over 14" from the nut. I've checked this out with both my Intelitouch and a Seiko chromatic tuner.<<<

My understanding here is that you are checking the open string note against the fretted note at the twelfth fret and using the mathematical approach of locating the bridge at 14 inches #(+ or - a couple of thou) then the harmonic at the twelfth is acceptable according to your chromatic tuner.

If the above understanding #is correct then special attention needs to focused regarding tension/force of fretting the string at the twelfth fret and comparing that note to it’s harmonic. I am certain that you are aware of the following however it might be an inadvertent oversight …….therefore by applying a greater than needed force to note #at the twelfth fret then #the balance of harmonic and fretted note is affected.

1. Apply just enough finger pressure to note the 12th fretted note CLEANLY ……. if additional pressure is exerted then a #sharpening of the note will be detected …..this sharpening effect by added pressure is even more so influenced by the fact the gauge of strings you are using is 010 015 024W 036W will be #more susceptible to bending (read sharpening) #than heavier gauge strings.

2. Strike the harmonic over #the 12th #fret (check against tuner) and compare that to the fretted note at the 12th fret (check against the tuner)…. .if the tuner indicates the FRETTED note to be FLAT #then confirm this by adding additional pressure to the fretted note and strike the harmonic #once again …your ear as well as the tuner will confirm the harmonic balance.

3. If the fretted note is FLAT then nudge the bridge FORWARD (shorten the string length) by a few thou of an inch. ….and RETUNE to A440 to maintain the tension….then once again check the fretted note against the harmonic.

4. If the fretted note is SHARP then nudge the bridge BACKWARD (lengthen the string) ) by a few thou of an inch.
5. ….and RETUNE to A440 to maintain the tension….then once again check the fretted note against the harmonic.

6. Chances are the treble side of the bridge moved , therefore RETUNE and repeat the drill as many times as necessary.....going from the E string side of the bridge to the G string side.

You have mentioned the fret positions correspond to the traditional 13 7/8 scale #therefore the above steps should provide a close intonation….however if dissonant chords/double and triple stops still appear then perhaps a heavier gauge of string might be more suited for your style and mando. If by increasing the pitch #by a half tone the problem disappears then a set of #11 - 40’s tuned at concert A440 will be very near the same tension. You can confirm the tension using the following.
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html

If you are still batting zero regarding dissonance then double check the nut and make certain the bearing angle is adequate …your #photo won’t reveal this #…… a noticeable downward angle of the string slot towards the tuning pegs is needed whereby the BEARING contact point is the point of the inside (fretboard) face of the nut. I personally like the strings to be exposed more so than what your photo reveals ….the treble strings appear to be embedded deep within the nut.

Still batting zero ? ….. then there is one final thought regarding EQUAL TEMPERAMENT tuning as applied to mandolin. It is based on setting the bearings for equal temperament tuning of a piano …… all 4ths are lowered 2 cents and all 5ths #are raised 2 cents. ….carrying that principle to the mandolin

1. TUNE the A string according to your chromatic tuner set at A440 Hertz

2. TUNE the E #(D string 2nd fret) 2 cents lower

3. TUNE the B (G string #4th fret) 2 cents lower

4. TUNE the #E #2 cents higher

A little side bar here #…… according to ‘ little’ #brother Charlie (Louvin)….. Ira wasn’t hesitant to trash more than one Gibson A or F style #mando in the recording studio because of tuning difficulties …..any way I hope all this helps you overcome your tuning problems….. I hear you clearly.

Mike

[david blair]

What Mr Lewis said=be sure to check the relief of the neck. If you have forward relief (pulled by the strings) then you will require a taller adjustment of the saddle to avoid the fret buzz. I think this adds up to more string tension. Humidity can be an issue here to. I put mine in the bathroom after a shower once and it seemed to help.
So, I would humidify it, and carefully adjust the fingerboard to flat (i like flat). Measure 13&7/8 down the middle, between A and D. Put the bridge there, and raise the saddle as needed. After the middle strings are in tune then angle the whole bridge assembly so the G strings have a longer scale length and the E strings shorter. You may sight from over the tailpiece and compare the height difference of the E and G strings. The G wants to be a tad taller than the E.
Tune your mandolin in fifths. A strings, and the rest by ear.

This drives me crazy too! Patience. It may take a while (days for me) to get it set up correctly.