Staying close to the melody

[Givensman]

What ever happened to good old mandolin pickin'? I'm sick and tired of all notes and no melody! Most of the time, one has no idea of what tune is being played!! If the break was taken out of context and played, you wouldn't have any idea what tune it was. Technical impressiveness (is this a word?) has absolutely ruined beautiful expression in mandolin playing!! Same goes in guitar pickin'. Pickin' riffs, runs, and etc. ruins good old fashion music. Oh well.....I'm old....and setch......guess I'll move on.....

[Gutbucket]

I think you have a valid point. Earl Scruggs always said "Stick with the melody, son". #I like to hear little musical ramblings that bring you back to the melody.

[Andrew DeMarco]

Why? Why stick to the melody? I mean, I understand the rationale- that is, you're playing a tune, so play the darn tune.

However, if music is more than a mechanical regurgitation of notes (which I think we'd all agree it is (more than)), then how does one define what is "acceptably close" to the melody during a break?

I mean, this argument could go on ad infinitum, since music is art... no? I just don't get the point of arguing about it.

Some people, like myself, will play around the melody because of technical limitations, but some people will clearly go nuts (I think we all have a couple of players in mind)... but if they come back on the 1, what's it matter?

I dunno, I guess these are sort of stock arguments.

[LKN2MYIS]

I agree. Too many people just ramble off with no direction or concept of what's in the better interest of the piece they are playing.

To me, I like to see SOME embellishment on breaks. But I also like to have it play with the melody, not disregard it all together. That stuff always seems egotistical to me.

Obviously it's a matter of taste - others like it. Just not my cup of tea.

[John Flynn]

I see a bit of both sides on this. I agree that sticking with the melody is usually the best bet and departing from the melody often hurts the music. But the reason for that, in my mind, is that departing from the melody is often not done well, both on the amatuer and the professional levels. I think on the amatuer level, there is pressure for a player to come up with something when it's their turn to solo even if they don't know the tune. At the pro level, you have people whose technical ability outstrips thier musical creativity and they are preferring to show off rather than enhance the tune.

But departing from the melody can go well, when it's done well. I think of Adam Steffy's solo on AKUS' "Everytime You Say Goodbye." That solo departs from the melody, but does so in such a way that it becomes an essential part of that arrangement. That tune just wouldn't be the same without it.

That is why I prefer old-time and Celtic music, where you stick with the melody and there are either no solos, or the solos are just people taking turns playing the melody. There is still a little room for creativity and improvization, but it is always in the context of the melody and supporting the music and the ensemble. While I can do OK at soloing in bluegrass jams, both on the melody and off, I think the whole improvizational solo thing is overrated and problematic. I don't enjoy doing it and I rarely enjoy what I hear when pros do it.

[Jim]

I felt the same way about "fusion" jazz in the 70s and "shred" rock guitar playing in the 80s and 90s. Too many notes not enough melody, yet a well done improv break is , in my opinion, the highest form of musical creativity. After all what were these great melodies but free improv until they were designated a song, named, and it became a sin to play them any other way. I believe that up through the 18th century improvisation was the norm for the second time through on a clasical composition but by the 19th century creativity became frowned upon. For myself I've found that writing my own music makes it difficult for people to tell whether I'm sticking with the melody or improvising and thus avoids critisisim on that aspect of my playing. Too many notes IS just showing off or J***ing off.

[f5loar]

Melody? What's that? I just pick!

[LKN2MYIS]

I see a bit of both sides on this. I agree that sticking with the melody is usually the best bet and departing from the melody often hurts the music. But the reason for that, in my mind, is that departing from the melody is often not done well, both on the amatuer and the professional levels. I think on the amatuer level, there is pressure for a player to come up with something when it's their turn to solo even if they don't know the tune. At the pro level, you have people whose technical ability outstrips thier musical creativity and they are preferring to show off rather than enhance the tune.

But departing from the melody can go well, when it's done well. I think of Adam Steffy's solo on AKUS' "Everytime You Say Goodbye." That solo departs from the melody, but does so in such a way that it becomes an essential part of that arrangement. That tune just wouldn't be the same without it.

That is why I prefer old-time and Celtic music, where you stick with the melody and there are either no solos, or the solos are just people taking turns playing the melody. There is still a little room for creativity and improvization, but it is always in the context of the melody and supporting the music and the ensemble. While I can do OK at soloing in bluegrass jams, both on the melody and off, I think the whole improvizational solo thing is overrated and problematic. I don't enjoy doing it and I rarely enjoy what I hear when pros do it.

I don't think that it is based on the type of music per say. I think players will do this regardless of what the genre is. But I agree that the structure of the style will curb this to some extent.

I am not a bluegrass guy at all - does nothing for me. But I've heard players of all types of genres go off on these solos that just leave me shaking my head.

Again, granted, probably less so in some types of music than others, but I don't think that a particular type of music is immune to that type of player. I would think that old time music would do this less, but it would still depend on what that particular player decides to do.

I remember a long time ago there was a folky-kind of duo around. Each song one of them would take one of these extended musical forays. Didn't understand it then, don't understand it now.

Not for everyone, I guess.

[AlanN]

Jethro said it: If someone comes in halfway into my break, I want them to know what tune I'm playing. And this from a guy who could improvise like nobody's business.

[Givensman]

What a great bunch of replys.

You guys know I'm not addressing improv......improv is the ultimate form of musical creativity.....and is necessary to make music, "Touch the Heart".

I'm talking about rambling note playing that goes nowhere!!

Best Wishes

[MandoBen]

I like it when someone plays the melody, then restates the melody in a cool way, and then puts the melody in a nitro funny car and drives it into a brick wall.

[cgwilsonjr]

If I'm playing a song that I know well or one where the melody jumps out at me I prefer to stay close to the melody. If I don't know the song or the melody doesn't jump out at me andI get a nod to take a break, I will think of the chord structure and play double stops and pentatonics. This is my approach to a large extent due to my technical limitations. Chuck

[cooper4205]

Jethro said it: If someone comes in halfway into my break, I want them to know what tune I'm playing. And this from a guy who could improvise like nobody's business.

wonder if he could tell which song this is from the break

Jackson

[Jim]

[QUOTE]wonder if he could tell which song this is from the break
WOW!

[Willie Poole]

One of the best compliments I haver got was a fellow told me he could tell exactly what I was playing on every song, I`m too stupid to improvise so I just play what I hear....Actually I do play some 7ths to lead into chord changes from time to time....I heard the Rice bros. picking a tune and never did know what they were playing and some people call it "Good picking" I don`t know about where all of you play but the audiences that I play to are mostly elderly and they like it trasditional and like to hear the melody....ENOUGH SAID...Willie

[Roger Kunkel]

I like players who clearly state the melody, but then embellish it with some variation and runs and double stops and tremolo and ... but you still hear the tune.

I'm sure many aspiring players who have the ramblin' flurry of notes approach, just can't actually find the melody on the spot so they resort to random noting within the chord tones. That's what happens to me when my brain goes dead - I'm trying to grow out of it.

[Daniel Wheeler]

I've heard it said that techinal wizardry is not to be mistaken for musical talent. Although many times it is one in the same. As has been said in another thread whose name escapes me now in talking about thile, once you play a rip your face off solo that amazes everyone it then becomes hard to make yourself play more musical passages that are much less crowd pleasing.

This has more truth to it than most people critical of the flashy style seem to realize.

Its hard to stop because its what gets the biggest response.

[Peter Hackman]

Jethro said it: If someone comes in halfway into my break, I want them to know what tune I'm playing. And this from a guy who could improvise like nobody's business.

wonder if he could tell which song this is from the break

Jackson

or from the singing ...

[JeffD]

You guys know I'm not addressing improv......improv is the ultimate form of musical creativity.....and is necessary to make music, "Touch the Heart".

This really depends on the genre. Staying very close to the melody and expressing yourself with dynamics and timing is often more appropriate than improvising. Take celtic, scandi, classical, eastern european, klezmer, old timey, new england contra dance music, old cowboy and country waltzes, 1920s string band music, broadway show tunes, television and movie themes, italian favorites, mandolin orchestra repertory, the list goes on.

Good improvising has its place, don't get me wrong, but it is not universal.

[JeffD]

Why? Why stick to the melody? I mean, I understand the rationale- that is, you're playing a tune, so play the darn tune.

However, if music is more than a mechanical regurgitation of notes (which I think we'd all agree it is (more than)), then how does one define what is "acceptably close" to the melody during a break?

For those types of music where improv is not as appropriate I would say acceptably close is that you don't significantly depart from the tune. You play the tune as expressively as you can.

Nothing better than a beautiful tune played beautifully.

[JeffD]

We all know several bluegrassers who can improvise like mad, but whose improvisation sounds pretty much the same regardless of the tune. That's what I think the original poster was getting at. Where the tune is mostly irrelevant, just a starting point for a flurry of notes appropriate to those chord changes, (mostly).

This is an extreme, and fortunately most players don't do this. But many aspire to, and it certainly gets adulation. To me this is the mechanical less-than-musical picking.

[JeffD]

Sorry for the rant, its just one of my things.

[mandozilla]

In bluegrass music (songs not instrumentals) I find it challenging to come up with a break that stays true to the melody but is fresh and interesting at the same time. To me the easy (lazy) way out would be to play a series of licks and scales just to get through the break...BORING!

[Klaus Wutscher]

While jethro didn´t always stick to his own advice he definitely has a point. Sometimes I get carried away in a live setting (in the fourth set anyway:laugh: )and I don´t like it, but it happens. Flashy can be cool but theses days many top players just overdo it imo and that can get quite boring to listen to. I find it much harder to rephrase the melody in a nifty way - that is, if I know the melody at all!

[AlanN]

The way a player takes a break, states the melody, dances around the changes, etc. is, of course, that player's style. It's like a signature: everybody picks up a pen and writes their name. They dot all the i's and crosses all the t's, just like everybody else, but how they do it defines their signature. Same with mandolin playing. Some styles I like, others I don't.

With all the (new) pickers out there, and all the ones that have come before, it's becoming harder and harder to find a way to play a lick that hasn't been done before. Didn't Grisman say that first position has been pretty much exhausted? - and this was 20 years ago. What catches my ear is attack, note selection and ideas, which is all rolled into 'style'.

And with Jethro, yeah, he may have strayed from his own philisophy, but within 2-3 bars of his break, you know what tune he was *tryin to pick*.