Vega cb vs martin

[Mike Buesseler]

I have no intention of starting an argument about this. Just wanted to share my experience.

Some of you might be aware that I am a big Vega cylinder back fan. I recently sold my 202 (which I loved) so I could afford to keep my 207 (which I love even more).

I don't remember ever playing a Martin mandolin before (I've been at this a looong time...), but have been wondering if some of those sweet looking Martin A style oval hole mandolins might be similar sounding to the Vega.

Well, yesterday I spotted an old rosewood (model B, I think)in a store near here. It was a bit beat up, but basically in quite good, playable condition.

I don't know what I expected in the way of sound, but it was a Martin after all. Anyway, the sound was nice...mellow, not especially loud, particularly in the G and D courses.

Of course, this is exactly what I've always read, but the gratifying part to me was how much fuller, louder, rounder, etc, etc, my Vega CB sounds!!! The Vega just blew that Martin away!

I share this for those who might be wondering what a Vega cylinder back sounds like. This might not help, but at least you have one more opinion on the subject and can compare it with your own when playing some of these older, lesser known mandolins. I won't be looking for a Martin flatback anytime soon...or at least I won't be expecting it to compete in any way with the Vega. I LOVE my CB!!

[fullcircle]

Thanks for this, for me, timely observation.

I think my maple Vega CB is just about perfect as far as tone, playability, and depth of sound. I have, though, been considering getting another instrument with which I would be more inclined to throw in the truck and take with me somewhere - rather that do that with the precious Vega. And, I actually had been considering, for several reasons, a Martin for that. With this great analysis, I reckon I'll keep looking.

Thanks Mike.

Gregg

[Mike Buesseler]

Hey, Gregg! I'm preaching to the choir with you, I know. But, glad this opinion was helpful in some way. I think I was exactly where you were on the issue. Those Martins are nicely built, sweet old mandolins. And I just played ONE, but what really nailed it for me was that the Martin sound was so close to what others here have said before.

These things are so subjective (and I wouldn't mind owning a Martin...), but eventually enough opinions saying the same thing add up to something, I think.

Now, comparing a Vega CB to a Gibson A model is another subject. Very different instruments, but each with very strong qualities. I am glad I own one each (so far) of them!

[Eugene]

I love the flat Martin models (and Vega cylinderbacks too), but frankly, I believe Martin mandolins found their greatest degree of cool and functionality in Neapolitan types and their oval-holed archtops.

[brunello97]

Mike,
Thanks for your description. These are two mandolins on my wish list. I did get an old Martin A last month and have been enjoying over the past few weeks. Your description of the sound probably matches mine. Very sweet, very nice, kind of intimate. Nice sustain easy, easy playing. My interest was in matching it up to other flatbacks, particularly my Leland, which I am imagining was the target competition for this range of Martins. It would seem the whole point of the cylinder backs was to move beyond the flatback performance. Your sampling is evidence of that. I'm looking to get a CB in my radar and budget later this year.

I wouldn't write the Martins off too soon, Gregg. They do have that sublime quality. Which to my ear is very nice. And I agree with Eugene, cool is the the word, it is in the bowlbacks for sure. My 00 is modest by any standards but it is going with me to the grave. The sound is right there--not Chicago and not Italy either.

Mick

[Dave Caulkins]

Y'know, I let a 205 go a couple of years ago (for a Gretsch Duo-Jet... Drop the stones... <ducks&gt, and I do really miss that instrument. Tonally, it was very hard to beat...

My problem? I can be a vicious pick wielder... I sat in with some old friends in a local folk-rock band (which I was in, and quit due to life... amazing how it gets in the way), and after a couple "rock" numbers had three broken strings on my Vega (no pickup, just microphone...). I remember feeling the panic and need to drive 40 miles to buy light gauge strings the next day, so the instrument wouldn't be in shock...

If I settled down into playing kinder and gentler forms of music (i.e. jazz, acoustic, folk/world- which, mind you, I'd love to do... as long as I could still play some twang) - I would sell my Cascade in a SECOND and pony up the cash for another 205 (or 207) Cylinder-Back. The Breedlove is the closest tone I can find in a road worthy instrument, but it isn't even close to my ears to that sweet, sweet sound. Someday, I'm sure, I'll stop my Alt-Country/CowPunk madness - but until then, I can justify playing as delicate an instrument. Drums occasionally mean pounding those strings... and my Flatiron A and Cascade take that well, even with Thomastiks.

I do miss that mando, if you don't wail on strings... I can't recommend any instrument more... Seriously...

Dave

[brunello97]

Here is a 1936 Martin 20 on sale on the ebay for a nice price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....US:1123

I would venture it sorely lacks the design elegance one typically assumes with Martin. I'll bet it sounds quite good, though.

Mick

[Bob DeVellis]

I'm a fan of the Martin flatbacks but I agree that the Vega Cylinder-backs outshine them. The Martin has a very nice tone but it leans a bit more toward the bowlback sound whereas the Vega leans a bit more toward the Gibson oval hole sound. Neither of these instruments has the same sound as a bowlback or a Gibby, but they tend in those directions, to my ear. My Martin flatback is very responsive and quite loud, actually. This may be because it's an employee model, made in the teens by a Martin employee as a personal instrument (actually, I think it was given as a gift to his daughter). As some of you know, Martin used to allow employees to build a custom personal instrument from time to time, with all the resources of the shop at their disposal. So, he got to pick the best materials and get the best guys in the shop to contribute their particular skills at various stages of the construction process. It's noticeably more responsive than the other rosewood Martins I've compared it to and is a very nice sounding instrument. But it's tone is more "crisp" than exceptionally warm. The Vega, on the other hand, has a sweet, sumptuous, creamy kind of tone. The Martin is more peppermint and the Vega more caramel. Both are very tasty but in different ways. I currently have the Martin strung with octave tuning on the bass courses -- sort of a mini-cittern effect -- and it actually works quite well.

[fullcircle]

That Martin style 20 is certainly a beautiful instrument, and makes one's heart go pitter-patter. Oval hole, two points, style and grace. But a shame that Martin never made the transition to a nominal 14" scale.

Gregg

[acousticphd]

I've tried out a few of the flat Martins, and a few of the carved archtops. In that limited experience, although I really like the look and styling of the archtops, their sound was very weak and disappointing, I thought.

[Mike Buesseler]

I remember feeling the panic and need to drive 40 miles to buy light gauge strings the next day, so the instrument wouldn't be in shock...

For what it's worth, I think one of the best discoveries I made about my Vega CBs was stringing them with GHS Silk & Bronze. I started with light guage, of various brands, but when Paul Hostetter convinced me that the Silk & Bronze were safe to use, it was a revelation! I much prefer the sound and feel of them over all the lighter guages I tried. To my ear, the S & Bs make the CBs sound even more like themselves, as BobD says, a sweeter, more sumptuous, creamier kind of tone.

The Martin is more peppermint and the Vega more caramel.

I cannot begin to comment on this part, but I loved it, anyway!

Oh, also, regarding the Martin that I played, the very best thing about it, to me, was its tailpiece, a nicely engraved cloud model--something my Vega had and deserves, but lost somewhere in its life. I have a plain one on it now, while I search. I considered buying the Martin and swapping tailpieces (a better match, in both cases), but whimped out at the last minute.

[Eugene]

I've tried out a few of the flat Martins, and a few of the carved archtops. #In that limited experience, although I really like the look and styling of the archtops, their sound was very weak and disappointing, I thought.

Have you tried Martin's oval-holed archtops? In my own opinion, they are far superior in tone to their f-holed archtops. They never seemed to get the f-holed thing to work right. In addition, I've seen a few too many of Martin's f-holed archtops to have collapsed between bridge and tailpiece than you'd expect of coincidence alone.

[brunello97]

Eugene, do you have an oval hole archtop Martin in your stable? I know how much you appreciate their work (and have influenced me accordingly.) If you do and have some pictures to share, I'd love to see them. I fear I was a bit rash in my earlier critique. I'm too much blinded by the L+H two-point style but I'm starting to appreciate the wide-hipped Martin version.

Mick

[Eugene]

No, I don't and never have, although I have played a great many. It's not that I don't appreciate the Martin archtops so much as that archtop mandolins just aren't much of a priority to me at all (they're too hard to hold compared to a comfortably thick bowlback!). The only archtop mandolin I have is a 1907 Gibson. However, a friend of mine decided to assemble some complete Martin collection and figured the easiest way to go about it was to focus on the archtop mandolins. He has at least one of every model including an oval-holed style 30, one of only two catalogued on their serial roster and probably the only surviving. That style 30 was probably the finest craftsmanship I've seen of the big American shops. My friend Tom also is rather expert at their restoration, and I spent a great deal of time when his shop was in Cleveland.

[Eugene]

...And frankly, as nicely made as the oval-holed Martin archtops were, I think the L&H carved series has a much more graceful sense of line.

[brunello97]

Ready, set, go. #Here is what appears to be a basic late-model Martin A gone for an astronomical price ~1300$US. Am I missing something on this? #A guess a bit of a deal in currency exchange as the buyer is from Greece.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=010

I know Martin prices are escalating but this appears extraordinary.

Mick

[johnl]

Wow, that is way high considering what Martin A's usually go for on eBay. I've seen auctions where two bidders each put in seemingly 'snipe-proof' bids, which end up with one person way over-bidding for an item; but the high bid was already over $700 before those bids were placed. I wonder if the buyer will follow through...

[Eddie Sheehy]

Hmmmmmm. That same guy - he's in New York but buying for a Greek (or so he told me) - called me about my Model A (1920) on CraigsList. I didn't feel comfortable since I had just pulled out of a Nigerian scam on the same instrument so I told him I wouldn't do business. Been kicking myself since, he was springing for $950 - my asking price.....

[gregjones]

After that sale there is now another bent top Martin on eBarf with a starting bid of $900 and a "buy it now" of $1200.

EBay item# 140211490848

I wonder if this is really a trend, or, someone who decided that if they're worth that---mine's for sale.

I hope it's all a fluke, since I've been saving for one thinking they're a $700 instrument.

[brunello97]

Greg,
I think I've been seeing an escalation of Martin prices over the last couple years, since I've been watching ebay sales and participating in the discussions here. Not long ago vintae A models were going in the $350-400 range and some of the more modest bowlbacks for considerably less than that. Now it is not uncommon to see the basic A models for going above 5C and in some cases much higher, as you note. ~$700 should certainly still get you an A model, and maybe even a B if you shop carefully or get something that might need minor repairs. If >$1000 is the new benchmark, I would be suprised, but I guess the trend is upwards. I think value conscious mandolin buyers will naturally be gravitating to well made cant-top flatbacks by Martin, L+H and others, with Martin still rating a premium over the Washburn flatbacks from the '20s. I have a mid 50s A as well as a mid '00 bowl and love them both. Good luck with your quest. They are fine instruments, as most folks here will tell you. Martin's higher end work is delightful in its restrained design elegance. Keep an eye on the classifieds here as well. Let us know if you find something.
Mick

[Old Time Poppy]

Mike B, I think I sold you the maple back 207 (and yes I have some sellers remorse)...did it not have an engraved TP? I could have sworn it did? Now I'm wondering if the guy who made that wonderful bridge pulled a switcheroo?? I guess that's not the case and I certainly won't mention a name. I lost your email in a computer crash otherwise I wouldn't take up the Post space. -Brian S.

[Mike Buesseler]

Oh, Hi, Brian! I missed this for a few days. Yup, it's the same 207 you sold me. I had the frets replaced (HUGE improvement in sound and playability!) and those two phoney inlays replaced (they are a bit nicer than the original two!). No engraved tailpiece. In fact, it was a rather cheap replacement. I found a better one, but still not engraved. I keep an eye out, though...this bridge IS nice. If you're guy pulled a switch on the TP, I wish we could get it back....