Where is the $6000?

[Got8Strings]

I spent a great day at Elderly yesterday looking at possible upgrades. What a BLAST! I spent a solid 90 minutes trying various mandolins occupying a wall in the showroom. Then I looked to the right and saw another wall of mandolins. Heaven!

All in all I spent about 5 hours there (sure went by fast) While there I happened to meet another Cafe member, Rick Jones who is a builder, and we had a nice chat.

So the first wall had the lower-end mandos - some new and some used. Kentuckys, Eastmans and assorted others ranging from $225 to $1500. I found a couple I liked.

The other wall had the more expensive ones - Collings, Phoenix, Pomeroy, some old Gibsons (one had a bizarrely large pickguard that some genius decided to provide additional support for by putting a pin from the pickguard through the bridge!)

Anyway, I really liked the Phoenix neo-classical and the Pomeroy. These have exquisite craftmanship, beautiful woods, great sound, made in USA, etc. and prices in the low $3000s. The price difference between the low-end mandos and these is easily understandable.

But then there was the Collings with a price of $9000. I played it. It didn't feel, look, or sound $6000 better than the others - in fact the craftmanship didn't even seem as good to me.

Why is the Collings worth so much more? What explains the difference of $6000? Is it about leaving the realm of tangible value (patently better woods, finer craftmanship) and getting into some mystical realm of perceived value?

<span style='color:red'>Edited to add: This is not intended as a bash of Collings or Collings buyers. It is a sincere curiosity. The Collings just happened to be the expensive item on the wall</span>

[G. Fisher]

But then there was the Collings with a price of $9000. I played it. It didn't feel, look, or sound $6000 better than the others - in fact the craftmanship didn't even seem as good to me.

I think Collings are considered by most people to be the most perfect in fit and finish.

[Got8Strings]

[QUOTE= (G. Fisher @ Feb. 10 2008, 00:18)][quote=I think Collings are considered by most people to be the most perfect in fit and finish.[/QUOTE]

I think the main thing that turned me off with the Collings was the ivroid binding - it looked yellowish - like it was ancient and discolored. Look at the "Front Detail" picture.

Maybe it is supposed to be that color - but it gave me a lousy impression.

But let's say it is supposed to look like that. I was very impressed by the fit and finish of the Phoenix and Pomeroy. I don't understand how the Collings fit and finish could be $6000 better than the others.

[Nick Triesch]

The yellow tint of the Collings binding is made that way on purpose to look aged. My Weber Fern has the same look . I like it rather than the snow white binding on other mandolins. As far as fit and finish....you will not find a more perfect made mandolin at any cost. At Buffalo Bros which is a huge Collings dealor, they showed me how even the binding on Collings MF5 for instance has the finished grain flowing the same direction. The whole mandolin is like that!!!! As far as the sound, Collings mandolins for the most part have very consistant sound. I have played a lot of them and unlike other fine builders, every one I have played sounded good. Then there is re sale value. If you check them out, Collings mandolins have some of best resale values out there. Yes, all this adds up to being worth $6000 more.

[fwoompf]

I loved the Phoenixes that were at Elderly the last time I was there, too.

Especially the noise they make with a fully muted chop. THWACK! Dry...

[Daniel Wheeler]

I have never had a bad experience with any collings instrument at any time. And no I'm not some collings lover. From the a models to the mf (which I thought was a pretty funny name for a mando model)blame it on immaturity but I digress, all the way up to the mf5s are all consistently excellent instruments. I hear that Mr bill collings is a character when it comes to detail and quality control.

[Jonathan Peck]

You could start by reading here Mandolin building cost per hour

[northfolk]

For my money it seems hard to beat Weber for fit and finish; even my Gibson A5 can't beat it. FWIW?

[John Hill]

I've never seen a less than perfectly finished Collings...most sound pretty darn good too. The extra $6000 is because they can and because people will pay. Simple enough.

[Rroyd]

Teens vintage A model Gibsons had a pin on the pickguard which went through a hole in the one-piece bridge. I don't know if that was a feature of all the A models, and when that changed, but it sounds like somebody just made a larger pickguard with the original fittings on the one you examined at Elderly.

[lovethemf5s]

Jeff, There are other mandolins out there that are priced much higher than Collings that are not much better. Try the $20,000 to $30,000 price range. Why don't you complain about the prices of some of these? I think that when you compare dollar for dollar with some of them the Collings product is a bargain. There must be some reason that Collings sales are doing so well and I don't think it is buyer stupidity.

[bcoryh]

The Collings that you reference is an MF5V. The V means that it has a varnish finish, and varnishing can impart a yellow color. Same is true of their guitars. My Ellis is the same way. Don't let it discourage you. Collings makes a fine instrument, and there are many benefits to that lovely varnish finish.

[chip]

Hmmmm...lets, see...wonder if marketing costs, advertising, number of employees, employee benefit plans, tax's, cost of goods,rents, tools, damaged merch, giveaways, #etc, etc...wonder if those might factor in to why some mandolins are more than others...hmmmm..

[Crowder]

Like cars, watches, etc., the differences are often at the extremes of performance/capability. Please take this the right way, but it's possible that you don't yet play well enough or in such a way that would bring out the absolute best in each instrument. Or, maybe it's because you're playing alone in a music store instead of in a noisy jam. Having owned both, I can tell you there's a lot of difference between a Collings and a Pomeroy. I wouldn't try to put a dollar value on it--that's the buyer's job.

[Brad Weiss]

I think what you're saying is that the Collings wouldn't be worth 6k more to you, #Who could argue? #My Phoenix was not only my favorite mandolin when I bought it, it remains as good a deal as I've seen in any mandolin.

[Got8Strings]

Geez - before some of you get your undies in a bunch:

A) I'm not complaining. I'm observing and trying to understand. Lighten up!

B) I understand intangibles like Gibson envy that drives up value. Perhaps there is Collings envy too.

C) I'll be the first to admit that I don't play well enough to bring out the best in any of these instruments. Maybe if Mike Marshall or Chris Thile played these instruments side by side I'd be able to hear the $6000 difference.

D) As far as the equation of input costs to pricing - that is way too simplistic. It would be easy to make something, putting more costs into it that it can possibly be sold for. That doesn't mean it is actually worth that much.

People obviously pay these prices for the Collings, and must feel they are worth it. That's fine! I'm just trying to understand the difference between what seems like very high quality $3000 and $9000 instruments. And I'm not picking on Collings - that just happens to be the high priced mando on the wall that I saw and tried for comparison. And yes, I know there are some that go for 20 grand or more. Same curiosity applies.

[Got8Strings]

Having owned both, I can tell you there's a lot of difference between a Collings and a Pomeroy.

Ah! You have my curiousity piqued! Please tell me more!

[Kevin Briggs]

Like cars, watches, etc., the differences are often at the extremes of performance/capability. Please take this the right way, but it's possible that you don't yet play well enough or in such a way that would bring out the absolute best in each instrument. Or, maybe it's because you're playing alone in a music store instead of in a noisy jam. Having owned both, I can tell you there's a lot of difference between a Collings and a Pomeroy. I wouldn't try to put a dollar value on it--that's the buyer's job.

I have to agree with this statement. Generally, I think there is a lot of value to be had in mandolins, if you know how to shop. The Pomeroy is a great value for what Don is aksing for them. Collings offer a reasonable garauntee fo getting what you think you are getting.

I will also argue that the impact of Collings mandolins on the market is extraordinary because they haven't even had the time to age yet. They come out of the box sounding great, and they obviously will just keep getting better. They are really good isntruments. That said, I'll add that they are pricey. I've never played a mandolin that outclasses my custom Weber Fern in tone or finish, and it was had for much less than $9000. You almost can;t pay that much for a top of the line Weber even if you want to.

[Got8Strings]

The yellow tint of the Collings binding is made that way on purpose to look aged. My Weber Fern has the same look . I like it rather than the snow white binding on other mandolins. As far as fit and finish....you will not find a more perfect made mandolin at any cost. At Buffalo Bros which is a huge Collings dealor, they showed me how even the binding on Collings MF5 for instance has the finished grain flowing the same direction. The whole mandolin is like that!!!! As far as the sound, Collings mandolins for the most part have very consistant sound. I have played a lot of them and unlike other fine builders, every one I have played sounded good. Then there is re sale value. If you check them out, Collings mandolins have some of best resale values out there. Yes, all this adds up to being worth $6000 more.

Thanks mandocat - this is great information. Sounds like extraordinary attention to detail, some of which is too subtle for my untrained eye to appreciate.

An excellent reason to give myself even more than 5 hours next time I go to Elderly! Clearly I was too rushed ;-)

[Jim Rowland]

Two thangs. When I was in the jewelry manufacturing business many years ago,the diamond-gem graders told me there was only one rule in pricing gems: What the traffic will bear.

Second thang: For most buyers,perception is reality.
Jim

[Got8Strings]

Two thangs. When I was in the jewelry manufacturing business many years ago,the diamond-gem graders told me there was only one rule in pricing gems: What the traffic will bear.

Second thang: For most buyers,perception is reality.
Jim

Diamonds are a good example. I'm sure there are objective differences between a $3000 diamond and a $9000 diamond (taking size out of the equation). Whether those differences are meaningful (or even perceptible without special equipment) to a diamond "user" is debatable. With diamonds perceived value seems to be the most important factor.

With musical instruments there are definitely perceptible differences in the wood, hardware, workmanship, finish, etc. between a $250 instrument and a $3000 instrument. I guess what I am having trouble with is the perceptible difference between the $3k and $9k models. I, personally, am having trouble perceiving the difference. Even if money were no object, I'd still want to understand what the extra $6k was for.

[Daniel Wheeler]

The collings you played is the highest after the deluxe that is available if my memory serves correctly. The mfs can be had at about 3500 or so and are so superbly well made. The deluxe model and the like are as one dealer so eloquently put are "rich mans toys"

[sunburst]

In the mandolin world, there are differences in quality across price ranges, and within price ranges. Some are bargains in terms of quality per dollar when compared to other makes where the quality per dollar ratio is less. Some of that is name and reputation, some of it is difficult to explain.

While the question of the OP may look like a "Collings bash" at first glance (and if it had been Gibson, this would probably be three pages by now and on it's way to "lock-down"), further posts by the OP indicate that he is asking the question because he really doesn't see/feel/hear that much difference in the mandolins, and it's a good, honest question.

That's understandable. I've been building and repairing instruments for 20 or so years, and I feel like I can detect quality differences fairly quickly and easily, but I can remember a time when I couldn't. Until one knows what the better construction methods are, knows what is the easy way and what is the better way, has learned to see the difference in great binding/detail/fret/finish work compared to average, he/she can't always see/feel the difference. I remember a time when I most likely would have had the same question in my mind because I wouldn't have been able to see/feel/hear the difference either.

One has to educate oneself. Look at lots of mandolins, play lots of mandolins, talk to lots of builders, talk to lots of repairmen (they know the intricacies of many brands better than anyone), read this forum, etc., and gradually one can learn to separate the great from the good, and when one is able to do that and recognize quality for what it is, regardless of the name on the peghead or the $$ figure on the price tag, then the bargains of the mandolin world become apparent.

[Greg H.]

Well, part if it is the name. If I made a mandolin as good looking and as good sounding as a Dude would I get $30,000 for it, of course not. Simlarly neither Phoenix nor Pomeroy have the name recognition nor the marketing clout of Collings. The same with Gibson. To be honest I've only played one Collings mandolin that really did anything for me. Does that mean they aren't good/great mandolins? No. It means that the tone isn't quite what I'm looking for. We all have our own subjective concepts of the sound and feel we want, and that doesn't make one mandolin intrinsically better than another, but it does make one mandolin more suited to us(me) than another.

[Bernie Daniel]

sunburst: While the question of the OP may look like a "Collings bash" at first glance (and if it had been Gibson, this would probably be three pages by now and on it's way to "lock-down"), further posts by the OP indicate that he is asking the question because he really doesn't see/feel/hear that much difference in the mandolins, and it's a good, honest question.

Ha! #Well stated. #I had the same thoughts -- there are many willing to pile on for a Gibson bash as though it is an "inalienable right" to do so. #

But let someone even suggest that, #or ask if, some other manufacturer is not perfection personified and feathers get ruffled pronto! #

What is good for the gander is also good for the goose?