Bill monroe's mandolin side/back wood combo?

[surfandstrum]

I've been looking through past thread and have seen a variety of answers, but was trying to figure out if Bill's mandolins were made with hard sugar maple (side/back) and adi (top)...I've been told that that combination of wood + the age = the great sound it produced...Since I'm not that savy in the vintage mandolin area, please forgive my possibly simplistic question...

[Spruce]

The top is a piece of slip-matched spruce with a wider grain-spacing--around 14 GPI or so...

There is a distinct curve to the grain....

There is some compression wood evident in the graining, so I would guess the wood is a bit on the heavy side...

If I had to guess, I would say it is Picea rubens...

[Spruce]

The back is also slip-matched, and is either Acer saccharum or Acer rubrum...

I would guess the former--hard maple...

It displays medium figuring, and is milled on the slab...

[surfandstrum]

Thanks spruce...wouldn't the tone be different between the two back-side spruces...I've been told Acer saccharum is the harder if not hardest of the maples which helps create the Monroeque BG chop/tone? The Acer rubrum would be a softer maple that would add a bit more warmth to the tone...This is only from my novice research...The reason I ask is if someone is looking for the specific sound wouldn't they want the specific wood combo rather than just the specific new-era mandolin?

[bradeinhorn]

The reason I ask is if someone is looking for the specific sound wouldn't they want the specific wood combo rather than just the specific new-era mandolin?

to some extant, but i think there are too many other variables in carving said maple and spruce and assembling said mandolin to chalk it down to a formula as simple as picking the same wood species as monroe's loar. you'd be better off finding a builder, be it a small shop luthier or a larger company like gibson or collings and see if you like the tone their instruments produce. there should be more consistency in the finished product of one builder's instruments than in two mandolins made by different builders with the same sets of wood.

additionally, each instrument sounds different in the hands of each player. chris thile plays a loar now, he still sounds like chris thile, not bill monroe.

[Spruce]

"I've been told Acer saccharum is the harder if not hardest of the maples which helps create the Monroeque BG chop/tone?"

The "Monroe tone" was in the hands of Mr. Monroe...
I have a recording where he breaks a string on the Loar, borrows a Kentucky (Bigleaf/Sitka), and then rips the snot out of--appropriately enough--"Kentucky Mandolin"... #
For some reason that Kentucky--on tape no less--sounded exactly like #73987...

That being said, if I was going to try to build a barkin' F5, I might lean towards the completely non-intuitive harder and heavier woods....

John Sullivan made me an F5 with the hardest maple I've ever run across, and some hard Red Spruce. #
It's a pretty good mandolin... #

[Brady Smith]

Bill could make an ebay $15 mandolin sound like a Loar..it's all in your mind.

Bill's Loar didn't sound like a Loar...it sounded like Bill!

[surfandstrum]

Bill could make an ebay $15 mandolin sound like a Loar..it's all in your mind.

Bill's Loar didn't sound like a Loar...it sounded like Bill!

This is where I get bummed at the forum..."it's all in your mind."...

I was just inquiring about some information I was looking for...I 100% understand you can't buy the talent of Monroe or Thile...They can make a shoebox sound great...

I was just trying to get a grasp of wood combinations that could produce that type of tone...I also know that you need the specs, bracing and measurements of a mandolin you would like to emulate...

If I might have mis-interpreted the comment, please accept my apologies, but I see too many critics jump down people's comments when they're asking honest questions...

[Bill Snyder]

I did not see anyone jump down your throat.
They were pointing out two very real things to keep in mind. 1) Even with plans and the same wood two different luthiers are likely to have slightly different sounding mandolins. 2) two different and accomplished players will sound different on the same instrument - Loar or not.

[Spruce]

"I was just trying to get a grasp of wood combinations that could produce that type of tone..."

I'll take it one step further (and just to bum you out a little more, surfandstrum) and say that just about any combination of woods can produce "that type of tone"...

I played a Weber Yellowstone at Winfield last year that did the Loar thing in spades...
Cedar and Bigleaf maple...

I've played Engelmann-topped mandolins that had that tight focused midrange, and Engelmann ain't supposed to be able to do that....

So don't get bummed. #
You're basically trying to figure out a bunch of subjects that are basically impossible to figure out--wood, mandolin makers, "that" tone, and Monroe's hands.... #

[Gail Hester]

surfandstrum, you asked a great question and thanks for asking it. #You got Bruce to jump in and talk about the wood in the most important mandolin ever made and that's a real treat in itself.

The only problem with this thread is that it now has my husband is wanting me to build him a mandolin with slip-matched Red Spruce top with a wider grain-spacing--around 14 GPI with some curve and compression to the grain and a hard Maple back.

[buddyellis]

Bruce, I guess that just proves to some extent that when we talk about how species of woods 'sound', it is difficult to generalize too much.

While generally we can have an idea what to expect within a particular species (and particularly if we are dealing with a single tree source), there is so much variation, even within a species, to speak authoritatively about individual boards without being able to examine, or otherwise determine the properties of a particular board.

[Spruce]

"Bruce, I guess that just proves to some extent that when we talk about how species of woods 'sound', it is difficult to generalize too much. "

Yeah, but it's done all the time...

An individual maker can have valid opinions about how certain species can produce certain tones in his or her work, but to generalize and say that "Adi produces Loar tone" is absurd....

There's a lot of ###### Adi mandos out there to prove it...

[buddyellis]

to generalize and say that "Adi produces Loar tone" is absurd....

ABSOLUTELY! Regarding wood choice, I've found in my short tenure muddling around about this stuff that density, stiffness, dampening, etc, are much more important than species (I've migrated toward wider grained, more hard/dense spruce). Certain species typically are 'predisposed' to be certain ways, but there is no certainty there.

Construction of the instrument is even more important.

[surfandstrum]

Bruce thanks for your expert input...that information is what I was hoping to receive...I usually am hesitant to post because I've seen some of the 'rabbit trails' that are taken and assumptions that are made...I'm just trying to figure some of the more complicated dynamics of the mandolin, it's history and what goes into making good or great instruments...