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Thread: Tablature vs. staff notation

  1. #51
    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    But if the “notation advocates” here do not believe that there has been an undercurrent of elitism on that topic in previous threads here, they are in denial.
    I haven't seen any "notation advocates" here. I for one couldn't care less how other people notate their music. #Comparing the strengths and weaknesses of both systems is not advocacy.

    If I, and others, have encouraged notation learning here, it's not out of some deep-seated interest in how other people notate music. #It's because there are beginners in this forum who are forming opinions about learning, and it's important they know there's nothing difficult or "elitist" about learning to read music. It's not in competition with tablature or developing your ear. And learning to sight-sing is one of the most rewarding, liberating experiences a musician can experience.

    Hmmm. . . .maybe I AM starting to sound like a "notation advocate."

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    Gilchrist (pick) Owner! jasona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (ducati08 @ Jan. 04 2008, 10:01)
    Here's the card in error:
    How funny! I didn't notice that at all since I'm trying to learn staff notation I'm not even looking at the tab!

    jflynnstl: I'm not sure how my pointing out that significantly MORE old time music is available in standard than tab makes your point that "tab seems more readily available". I guess it depends on where you are looking. Were I to search for ABCs anywhere on the internet, say, or celtic music in the large songbook on The Session, its all standard notation.

    I quite agree that figuring out tab is pretty simple, providing you know the tuning, as pointed out by Eugene, and so is appropriate for rank beginners to get them playing as soon as possible.
    Jason Anderson

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  3. #53
    Registered User johnbaxter's Avatar
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    That string must have gone out of tune a half-step. I fixed it. Thanks for catching that.

  4. #54

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    Jason A: I mostly didn't pay atten to the tab either, except for quickly checking notes above the 7th fret where my familiarity is worse and recall slower.

    John: thanks again for the site and the quick fix!
    Don

  5. #55
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    jflynnstl: I'm not sure how my pointing out that significantly MORE old time music is available in standard than tab makes your point that "tab seems more readily available". I guess it depends on where you are looking. Were I to search for ABCs anywhere on the internet, say, or celtic music in the large songbook on The Session, its all standard notation.
    Well, I have a similar discussion all the time with the technologists I work with. I will point out to them that system documentation is not sufficiently available to users. They will invariably reply something like, "Sure, it's available! You just go on this server and type in this URL to get X and then you go to the portal and log in, click that tab and get Y." I have to explain that availability is a relative term. Anything in the world, including the combination to Fort Knox, is available if you know where to look and have access. But on a practical level, an important aspect of the term "available" is "can everyone who needs it easily find it and use it?" To the technologists, the typical attitude is "Well, if they don't know how to navigate our technical landscape, they need to learn!" That's when I have to reset priorities for them.

    Getting back to tab, it has taken me years to discover all the tab/notation sites and publications out there. I'm still finding them! I'll bet I know some you don't and I'm sure you know some I don't. Beginners don't have all that. What they see when they start, on this site, in most beginning mando books, including the Mandolin Player's Fakebook you mentioned, is tab. That is how you made my point. That is what beginners have "available" and that is all they will have until they have put some time in.

    Here is a point on a different tangent: A lot of people come into mandolin from the guitar. And I don't mean classical/jazz guitar either. They come from popular/roots music guitar. There, tab really overshadows notation. It's something those players are used to and comfortable with.




  6. #56
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ Jan. 04 2008, 10:34)
    I respectfully disagree with your second premise that there is an endless supply of music in standard. That is probably true in the band music world and some other genres, but for music such as bluegrass and old-time, which are very popular genres for the mandolin, tab seems more readily available.
    Perhaps I misunderstand. Your post may imply that a notation reading mandolinist that wants to learn bluegrass would have to learn tab.

    I am newer to BG, but lots of time in OT and New England, Irish/Scottish fiddle tunes.

    So this question may be vary naive - it is not meant with any sarcasm.

    In a bluegrass setting - I would guess the fiddler reads notation. (I have seen fiddle tab, but I have never met anyone who used it, much less anyone who used it to the exclusion of notation.) And if a fiddler wanted to learn a bunch of traditional and popular bluegrass tunes in order to participate in a local jam, she/he would be able to find all kinds of tune books, written in notation, for that purpose.

    Could not the similarly aspiring but notation reading mandolin player get all of those tunes from the same source as the fiddle player?

    In my collection of tune books I have hardly anything written for mandolin. As has been noted, the advantage of notation is that all the worlds music is available.

    I know this is the case in old time. As a result I can find anything I want, way too much more than I will ever need in fact, written in standard notation.

    It is probably true that more BG and OT music has also been also released in tab for mandolin than other kinds of music. So the tab reading mandolin player has an easier access to OT and BG than any other type of music.

    But I can't imagine there being much of anything, in BG, OT or any other genre, published only in tab and not easily available elsewhere in notation, though it might not say "mandolin" on the cover.



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  7. #57
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ Jan. 04 2008, 10:34)
    But if the “notation advocates” here do not believe that there has been an undercurrent of elitism on that topic in previous threads here, they are in denial.
    I never intend to be elitist or to come off better than anyone. If I do I sincerely apologize. In music especially, it is important to communicate in a way that can be easily heard, and elitism and sarcasm put off the listener immediately.

    But it goes two ways. It has been my experience, here and elsewhere, within this debate and with other similarly configured debates, that the elitism, when and where it rears its head, is often in response to a more deliberate and provocing "anti-elitism".

    What started this solar flare over an old dead horse was another thread entirely. And what provoked it? A book teaching classical mandolin that doesn't include tab? No, common sense would argue that such a thing would not provoce anyone. In this case I think it was the anti-elites who got wrapped around the axle first.

    But I am sure that in this and in other cases I have unknowingly provoced and even insited arguements, by a turn of phrase or casually careless statement. For that I am truly sorry.



    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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    Mando Johnny said: "The Cafe' here is the premier mandolin site in the world. There is an extensive tab section here. But do you see a notation section? No."

    I see one...here you go

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/tunes.html

    Enjoy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ Jan. 03 2008, 18:08)
    I'm primarily an ear player and the only thing I use notation or tab for is if I'm having a little trouble translating what I am hearing onto the fretboard.
    My start in music was in learning to read notation (5th grade band). I never got any push to play by ear which is unfortunate. Like most disciplines the earlier you start the better. If my horn teacher had recognized that I couldn't hear intervals rather than scream at me to get it right (why is this such common practice?), I'd be much better off today.

    I am working to improve my ear playing, but it does take time. And it's a highly desired skill.

    On the other hand, much of the music I want to play, I have no recording of. In this case, playing by ear isn't of much use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by (NumbersAndNoise @ Jan. 04 2008, 03:59)
    For me it's never about the visual. I'm a tactile learner, and tab bridges the gap a little for me.
    I am a visual learner which brings me back to my point of different strokes for different folks. Different people have different strengths and different ways of learning.

  11. #61
    Gilchrist (pick) Owner! jasona's Avatar
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    jflynnstl: Thanks for your clarifying post. We had differing interpretations for what "readily available" means. You mean, "in what form are most beginner's books written" whereas I meant, "in what written form most tunes can be easily found".

    I can't speak to the former, not having any beginners books (although the videos like Thile's come with both tab and standard), but it would be interesting to do a little experiment, because there are assumptions implicit in your message that might not be correct. The principal one is "most beginners are on-line and would come to the Cafe immediately". I believe, at least in the United States, most people still do not have a household internet connection. So, most people would probably head to the local music shop (which, for most people, is probably a Guitar Center or another big box store of that ilk) and head to the music section entitled "bluegrass" or "old time" or "mandolin". The experiment would be for one of us to go in there and flip through the books in those sections and see in which form most soungs are found. I'm pretty sure one would find the music will be in either standard--since a number of different instruments play these tunes--or BOTH tab and standard in the case of the "mandolin" section.

    BUT, I don't really care about the results enough to do this myself

    Interesting discussion all!



    Jason Anderson

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ Jan. 04 2008, 10:34)
    But if the “notation advocates” here do not believe that there has been an undercurrent of elitism on that topic in previous threads here, they are in denial.
    That certainly does happen sometimes, but again, I find the angry criticism of musicians who write and publish in staff notation for not writing in tablature because somebody wants them to do so to be equally elitist...in a weird reverse-elitism kinda way. #This phenomenon was also commented upon by Jeff.

    ...And I tend to believe you should pursue music in a way that satisfies what you'd like to do with it and not criticize those who do something else. #If your priority is to enjoy picking tunes from tablature with a few friends, you should do so. #If your intent is to play mandolin studies by Stauffer or become a professional musician and expect to be paid for your work, you probably should learn to read staff notation. #In either case there's nothing wrong with the other priority, and there should be no expectation that adherents to either camp should cater to the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by
    Beginners don't have all that. What they see when they start, on this site, in most beginning mando books, including the Mandolin Player's Fakebook you mentioned, is tab.
    That's not necessarily true. #I came to mandolin from classical guitar. #I started with the available "classical" mandolin methods. #They almost universally begin by teaching the new mandolin student how to read, how to translate staff notation into pitches sounded with a mandolin. #Even the old Mel Bay method (that I hope will be somewhat supplanted by Ms. Mair's) opens in that way. #I believe the recent number of long-term tablature users and the odd "people's" elitist attitude that sometimes comes with it is at least partly fueled by the ease of free electronic sharing of tablatures.




  13. #63
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Mando Johnny said: "The Cafe' here is the premier mandolin site in the world. There is an extensive tab section here. But do you see a notation section? No."

    I see one...here you go

    ]http://www.mandolincafe.com/tunes.html


    I didn't know that was there. Wow! Eleven whole tunes in notation, versus 1,709 in the tab section. As they said on Hee Haw! "Yer honor, ah rest mah case!"




  14. #64

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    Regarding beginning mandolin players and the resources that are available to them. I recognize that my situation was not the norm. I came to the mandolin knowing just as much about theory as my teacher, and probably more about reading standard and history and other things more commonly associated with classical. This site was not available to me as a beginner. I had no idea that it existed for months. I think I found it when I started searching for answers to questions I wasn't making clear to my teacher (musical language barrier).

    What was available to me was what I had access to in the small local music store and also what my teacher made available to me (well and the fact that I could already read standard made all my whistle books available to me too, technically). The store sold books primarily in combined standard/TAB. My teacher tried to teach me in TAB, but I kept rewriting it in standard. I think TAB is more available to beginners because that's what teachers give them. It comes with a very sharp learning curve, students are happy with their progress and they don't quit as easily when they start on TAB. That's a definite advantage. The downside to that is that it makes standard seem that much harder to learn because it's not instant. Students are far more resistant to learning standard and they can't access all of the material written in standard, but not in tab.

    My suggestion: start them on TAB, but get them working on standard at the same time. Also start training their ears within a couple of months of starting. Learning all three couldn't hurt anyone. Give them the instant gratification of playing songs in the first couple of lessons, but give them the tools to access the wider world of music (and I'm talking standard notation AND oral tradition here). Students will go as far as they want to.

    -Katie

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    I think you make too much out of the tunes on this site being in tab. I am guessing but it might also be justified by the amount of bandwidth and ease of transmission afforded by tab.

    While I can agree that this is in all liklihood the premier mandolin site in the world, I doubt many users see the tunes and conclude that tab must be the standard for mandolin musical transcription.

    It might also be the least likely to torque folks off. You rarely hear anyone complain about only finding something in tab.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Eugene @ Jan. 04 2008, 19:39)
    In either case there's nothing wrong with the other priority, and there should be no expectation that adherents to either camp should cater to the other.
    That really sums it up for me. Its another way of saying "don't bother anyone" and "don't be too easily bothered", which are my rules for life. That, and "never let a cowboy make the coffee".
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    I'm a long time reader of Mandolin Cafe but only recently became a member. This is probably a very odd first post, but this video seemed at least peripherally related to this thread (and probably others):

    Notation case goes to court

    Absolutely no mando content, but it's very funny.

    I found the link on the Fretboard Journal blog today.

    I'll try to come up with a legitimate mandolin post soon.

    Mark

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Mark:

    Very funny. One of the best first posts I've ever seen!

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    <For mandolin players in the most popular mandolin genres, tab is more prevalent and for good reason.>

    Venture out of the folk idiom at your own risk.

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    while your at it..........is gibson the best mandolin in the world?......hehe

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    that video was hilarious!
    Welcome to the cafe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jasona @ Jan. 04 2008, 15:42)
    I believe, at least in the United States, most people still do not have a household internet connection. So, most people would probably head to the local music shop (which, for most people, is probably a Guitar Center or another big box store of that ilk) and head to the music section entitled "bluegrass" or "old time" or "mandolin".
    I don't know what part of the U.S. you live in, but living in Los Angeles and then Seattle, not only do I not know anyone without an internet connection, having anything less than broadband is extremely out of the ordinary, like not having a television, microwave or telephone. At least among my peers (mostly college students), books of notation are considered a ripoff with tablature freely available online. The format is gaining ground because it is widely and freely available. Ultimately, it helps more people learn, understand and appreciate music, and that can only be a good thing.
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    No flame intended, and slightly off topic but here is a statistic on broadband Internet access:

    "The Pew Internet & American Life Project has released their Broadband Adoption 2007 report. The report finds that nearly half (47%) of all adult Americans now have a high-speed internet connection at home, according to a February 2007 survey conducted by the Pew Internet & American Life Project."

    47%, I would venture, does not = everyone. In fact, in the mountainous area where I live, only two houses out of seven can get broadband (I'm one of the lucky two) -- Most are blocked from signals by those inconvenient masses of rocks and trees! Guess that stat is balanced off by the college students in LA and Seattle (joke intended, really).
    Gerry and "Team GDAE"
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  24. #74

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    I know that free online tablature -- it is mostly incorrect or at least somewhat inaccurate (usually prefaced by the phase "I've never done this before, here is my first tablature!" Every now and then one of my students brings some in because he can't get it to sound right.

    So, inaccurate AND a copyright infringement -- who could ask for anything more!

  25. #75

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    I have to say, I read some of the posts in the Mair thread and I can see why tab only readers might have gotten a little miffed. Some of the posts sounded a little like my folks when they were trying to get me to eat squash. kind of a "do it, it's good for you. If you stopped whining about it, it would already be done and you could have your desert" attitude.

    Reading that over and over might make someone feel like their intelligence is being questioned. I know no one here would question another board members intelligence (we all play the mandolin after all), but I can see where it might be interpreted that way.

    Reading standard is not effortless. It takes daily practice and it is harder for an adult than it is for a very young child. Music is learned with the same part of the brain as language, so saying that it should be easier for an adult is like saying it should be easier for an adult to learn French. Young children's brains are designed to learn that stuff. Adult brains are designed to use the information we gained as children. We problem solve and reason.

    That being said, standard can be learned by an adult with a little bit of practice every day. It's not too hard for anyone to learn as long as you have the time to dedicate towards it every day. The every day part is important. Maybe someday I'll write some exercises to help tab readers learn standard and post them, but I bet that already exists somewhere.
    -Katie

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