Water-based vs. alcohol-based dyes

[bulldog]

Im sure this has been discussed before, and I have already checked the archives. But, what Im interested in finding out is the pros/cons of each method. Not so much "I use this and like it", but, why someone would use water-based over alcohol-based, or visa-versa. Does one raise grain whereas the other does not? Easier to blend colors? Etc. Thanks.

[tonydxn]

I use a water-based acrylic because:

1) I haven't got sophisticated fume extraction and don't want to breathe the fumes you get with spirit-based lacquers etc.

2) My workshop is next to our kitchen, and my wife doesn't want to breathe them either

3) I'm a skinflint and hate paying for fancy solvents when you can use a varnish whose solvent comes out of the tap (I believe Americans call that a fawcet or something)

4) Cleaning up the equipment is nice and easy

5) It sticks harder to the fingerboard edge than spirit-based lacquers I've tried.

What I don't like about it:

1) It takes a long time to get hard enough to cut back and polish up (sometimes up to a month)

2) There's sometimes a funny reaction with spruce. Certain grain lines cause a ridge - you sand it out but it re-appears in the next coat. #And the next . . . #I get round it by giving the soundboard a coat of cellulose-based sanding sealer.

3) It doesn't get as hard as spirit-based lacquers. This can be an advantage - it doesn't chip and crack as much. However, it means that it's prone to marking anywhere there's pressure on it (eg. under the bridge on a mando).

I'm in England, and use a brand called Rustin's, that's made here. Maybe the water-based finishes you get from LMII or StewMac do a better job.

[Bill Snyder]

The original post is about dyes not finishes.

[tonydxn]

Oh yeah . . . Ooops!

Thanks for waking me up, Bill.

[Bill Snyder]

Tony I am sure your insight on waterbased finishes is appreciated by others as well.

[james condino]

Bulldog:

I use a water based dye when I apply color directly to the wood. If you use an alcohol or solvent based dye directly on the wood the colors can run if you handrub or French polish directly over the top of it. There are ways to work around this aspect, but it is delicate dancing.

I use an alcohol based dye when I spray color. As with everything, there are a LOT of different approaches to color and finish work, and they all have a bit of a learning curve.

There is a video on FineWoodworking.com this month where I apply a sunburst finish using water based dyes and then topcoat it with a French polish. The link is posted on another active discussion.

j.
www.condino.com

[bulldog]

Thanks James,
I saw that video clip and it was very helpful. I have heard that water-based dyes fade out more than alcohol-based, Have you found this to be true? I would prefer to work with the water-based dyes. Love your result.

[james condino]

All of the individual batches of dye have different degrees of colorfastness or fading. Your best bet is to make up a few sample pieces and then put them away in a direct sunlight area for a real world test. Mask off part of the test pieces so that part is completely covered and record the exposures. A year of this direct exposure in sunlight should simulate a lifetime of in and out of the case exposure.

LMI's MEK metal acid dyes have AMAZING bright colors and fastness to them, but you'll nearly drop dead from respiratory distress trying to use them. If I need a Pual Reed Smith style modern bright jello orange sunburst, I'll sometimes use those, but only in a well ventillated spraybooth while wearing the Star Wars stormtrooper powered respirator!

j.
www.condino.com

[Michael Lewis]

Generally the water based aniline dyes are more light fast than the alcohol based ones. The metal acid (MEK dispersion dye, universal tints, etc.) are supposed to be even more light fast.