Bach violin partita in d

[jac314]

First of all, I was looking up Chris Thile videos and came across these two of him playing the Gigue from the third Bach violin partita: http://vids.myspace.com/index.c....3986447
and www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu-62qWjaHw
Amazing!

Also, when I was a classical guitar player, my goal was to eventually play the chaconne from this partita. It's pretty popular among guitarists, but I was wondering if anyone knew of recordings of it on mandolin? (Maybe Chris is working on that next) Now that I don't play much guitar anymore I can make it my new goal to play it on mandolin. - Jeremy

[Shalebot]

I know Thile wants to do a Bach album (he says he wants to wait until his thirties, because he feels he's not ready for it - ha!), and Mike Marshall has said that Thile had all the partitas on lockdown, so maybe someday. =P

[jac314]

I'm definitely looking forward to that album....how long until he's thirty?

[Andrew DeMarco]

I think he's 26 now. What does "on lockdown" mean in this context?

[seanonabutton]

i've seen mike marshall play the chaconne from memory on multiple occasions... though im not sure he'll record it. maybe on the next tone poets cd?

and for a bad rendition of the gigue check my signature

[jac314]

Correction...the chaconne in question is from 2nd partita....also, I found this video of someone playing part of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1IMc...eature=related

(It's a very strange video...no one seems to be paying attention to the guy playing.)

[jac314]

Sean, I thought your playing was awesome. Great rendition! I find I much prefer the sound of non-bowlback mandolins for this sort of fast single-line playing.

[Alex Fields]

The chaconne video IS kinda weird. The guy's pretty good but his rendition is kindof tasteless IMO, like he's just playing it as a showpiece or something.

I started working on the chaconne recently, haven't got very far. I'm working on all of the sonatas/partitas a few pieces at a time. I want to start by mastering the whole first partita but I love the chaconne so much I couldn't resist getting a head start on it.

[Jim Garber]

I like this rendition of the Gigue from Partita #2 by this guy on a Gibson F4. Do we know him? Is he a Cafe denizen?

[Acquavella]

Hello,

Personally, I'm not too crazy about Thile flying through Bach. Speed sometimes covers a lack of musicianship or understanding. I recommend checking out our very own, Neil Gladd, who has a wonderful recording of Bach's Partita in D minor, all five movements. The album is called "Baroque to Modern". Neil is very musical and shows an educated understanding of Bach's musical phrasing. The recording could use some reverb but the playing is lovely. Also, if you every have a chance to hear Alison or Caterina play Bach.......definitely something NOT to be missed.

[Peter Hackman]

The chaconne video IS kinda weird. #The guy's pretty good but his rendition is kindof tasteless IMO, like he's just playing it as a showpiece or something.

I started working on the chaconne recently, haven't got very far. #I'm working on all of the sonatas/partitas a few pieces at a time. #I want to start by mastering the whole first partita but I love the chaconne so much I couldn't resist getting a head start on it.

I wouldn't infer that much from such a poor recording. Actually, every time I encounter stuff like that I just turn it off, can't be healthy listening.
What are people thinking when they post music videos of inferior sound quality?

[jac314]

Acquavella - thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately, the Gladd recording only seems to be available on LP. I'll keep an eye out for it though. Also, I really do prefer the sound of modern vs. bowlback mandolins for this sort of thing.

[Acquavella]

QUOTE: "Unfortunately, the Gladd recording only seems to be available on LP....Also, I really do prefer the sound of modern vs. bowlback mandolins for this sort of thing."

Yeah - unfortunately the recording is only LP. Personally I prefer LP for all of my classical recordings...especially symphonic works. I can hear a lot more depth in them. (Of course, caring my record player in my car is proving quite difficult).

As far as prefering flatback to bowlback.....fair enough. We all have our own personal taste. What I am recommending is listening to the musicianship and phrasing of an educated musician (someone experienced in baroque era), compared to someone trying to figure it out on their own.

[Stephanie Reiser]

When I took a mandolin lesson from Marshall, he played the Giga. I then asked if he could play the chaconne, and he proceeded to crank it out with me sitting 3 feet in front of him. It was very beautiful, and moving. He said that he'd worked on it off and on for 20 years. And at times, he and Chris would mess around with it in the evening while sharing a bottle of wine.
It's a great piece. I enjoy playing the Sarabanda and Giga movements together, from the Dm.

[Doug Hoople]

"Personally, I'm not too crazy about Thile flying through Bach. Speed sometimes covers a lack of musicianship or understanding."

I've seen Chris playing the Bach, and attended a master class that he gave on the topic of the sonatas and partitas a couple of years ago. To accuse him of using "speed to cover a lack of musicianship or understanding" is to miss out entirely on what he's doing.

For musicianship, he absolutely can't be faulted. As for understanding, just ask him. He plays the entire set of sonatas and partitas flawlessly at any tempo he likes, but he's waiting a decade before committing them to a "definitive" recording. Why? Because he doesn't think he understands them yet. I think that speaks volumes in terms of musical honesty (whatever you might think of the hubris of seriously entertaining the goal of recording the "definitive" version).

In terms of speed, Chris played us the Prelude in E at a breakneck pace, but with great ease and musicality. At a speed that most mortals couldn't even contemplate, he found new elements of expression, and new ways of expressing Bach that were quite illuminating, actually, but that would almost certainly have grated on the nerves of "authenticists." (Disclosure: I was a music history major in college, and spent many an hour belaboring the minutiae of Baroque performance practice.)

And as far as performance practice is concerned, there are two observations you can make: 1) Chris is taking a lot of time and trouble to transfer as much of the authentic historical practice as possible from the violin to the mandolin, and 2) what business do we have harping on about performance practice? We're playing these things on the MANDOLIN!!!

[Doug Hoople]

Since we're on this topic, I might as well relate one other moment in that master class. #

Chris is totally aware of tempo and what is appropriate and inappropriate, and his mastery is such that he can play the tempo of his choosing throughout. #So when he plays someting fast, it's because he thinks there's something to say at that tempo, or at least something the reflects the original intent of J.S. Bach. #The same would be true for his choice of slower tempi as well. #

The observation was made in class that sometimes the tempi are governed by the technical limitations of players, but that in his case, that was obviously not a limitation. #Given that, did he think that the "dance movements" from the Partitas should be taken at the tempo for those dance styles? i.e., that the allemande, courante, sarabande, minuet, gigue, etc.., should be taken at the tempi at which they might be danced. #This is a perpetual point of discussion whenever dance is the underlying stylistic inspiration. #

He said yes, whenever that was possible. #

But what about the Corrente in the Bm Partita? #"Ah, that's different!" he exclaimed, and lit right up. #Because of the Doubles, all of the tempi in the Bm Partita are problematic. #There's no good answer, or, at least there is a lot of conflicting conceptual dynamic to work through in getting to a reasonable answer. #

If one took the Corrente slowly enough to make the Double reasonable, then it might not contrast enough with the preceding Allemanda. #But if the Corrente were to be taken at the tempo of the dance, essentially at a "running" pace, then the Double becomes totally outrageous. #

He proceeded to demonstrate. #He manically launched into the first two measures of the Corrente's Double at ridiculous tempo required, and then shocked the room by continuing the impossibly fast passage to its conclusion without missing a note. #It was a sustainable pace for him. #It was stunning, to say the least. #

He finished with a sly smile on his face and said, "THAT's what makes finding the right tempo for the Corrente so hard." #We were all catching our breath just from listening. He did say that what he had just played struck him as neither musical nor appropriate.

Actually, he finished by playing the Corrente itself (which he had not prepared for the class) off the top of his head, at a reasonable tempo, and it was just beautiful.

[Jim Garber]

Lots, of food for thought, Doug. Obviously much of it related to the taste of the musician and the listener as to who what appeals to.

Yes, it is impressive to hear the speed and clarity with which Mr. Thile plays -- I have only heard an mp3 that someone posted of his noodling in the background on that piece. I do think that his hesitation to commit to a recording is to be commended as well. And I don't doubt his musicianship.

However, regardless of whatever instrument these pieces were played on -- violin included, esp since the violin in Bach's day was a different instrument and likely tuned to a different standard -- there is still room for interpretation and phrasing. If CT can pull off a performance of the Chaconne at breakneck speed and still maintain some subtleties of phrasing, all power to him.

I would love to hear his rendition in person and compare objectively to that of the others mentioned.

BTW Neil: were can we get your recordings of Bach?

[Doug Hoople]

Hi Jim! #

Totally agreed. #There are lots of ways to get Bach right, and I think that's part of the point. #I personally think that the "definitive" version is a red herring. #

Honorable to pursue? #Yes. A productive way of trying to get at the essence of the music? Sure.

Final? #Truly definitive? #Nothing more to be said on the topic? #No. #I mean, why would we ever stop trying to make it better? #

With music as beautiful and as deep as this, there's always going to be more to say, and I applaud everyone's attempts to get it "right."

Doug

[Doug Hoople]

BTW, Jim,

Have you ever heard Carlo play the Dm Ciaccona? He's played bits and pieces of it in my lessons with him, and it was beautiful and inspirational, very moving. Even with the thinner sound of the bowlback, he still managed to convey the raw emotional power and sheer gravity of that piece.

Amazing what can be expressed by a true master!

One last thing: That masterpiece from the Old Country, the Great Chaccone, is better known in oldtime and bluegrass circles as "Big Jack Owen," an old country fiddle tune.

[Neil Gladd]

BTW Neil: were can we get your recordings of Bach?

You can order the LP by clicking the "my music" in my signature line. In the past I have also included a CD-R copy with it, but you won't see an official CD release, since the master tape is apparently lost.

There is much in this thread that I would respond to, but I have errands to run and am hitting the road early tomorrow morning. I'll catch up at the Cafe after I return on the 27th.

Chris, thanks for the plug! The LP was recorded in a studio with a completely flat acoustic, and recording an hour of difficult solo music in that space was grueling and unpleasant. Never again!!! From now on, I only record in concert halls.

A Merry Christmas to one and all!

[RSW]

"Simplicity, truth and unaffectedness are the leading principles of the beautiful in ever work of art" Adelina Patti, 1882
With Bach, you have a composer (you have his compositions) that are almost indestructable by ones interpretation and performance (or instrument), however try to listen to any of your hero's performance more than a couple of times, really listening, not like having background music. See if you are still listening to the music (feelilng the music). Why do so many great players hesitate to record or sign their 'definitive' performance of Bach's music? Go back to Adelina's quote at the top and think about it. Great music doesn't need great interpretation or absolute perfection in execution, but yet that is what every player tries to do with this music, big time interpretation and making a personal statement no matter what: faster, slower, bigger sound, more extreme dynamics, exotic ornaments, unusual accents, grimaces, knee bends (for violinists), etc. Regardless, this music somehow survives everyone and anyone willing to take it on (even the likes of Nigel Kennedy), can't say the same for the music of Telemann or even Bach's sons.

Happy Holidays!

P.S. I have that recording of yours Neil and like it very much (even the dry acoustic...much more honest)

[Jim Garber]

Beautifully stated, Richard! For myself as listener, I admire musicianship above all. Perfection of execution even at high speeds does not impress me, but, let's face it, we all use these instruments, for the most part as a means to express ourselves and communicate musically.

[Doug Hoople]

Ah, musicianship... the eternal ideal. But, to repeat the age-old question, what is musicianship? And, in this discussion, what defines the essence of musicianship?

Part of what's implied in this discussion is that fast, accurate playing automatically precludes the additional elements of intelligence, passion and beauty. I don't think anyone here is trying to advance that argument, but it is strongly implied.

The really great players can play how they like, at any speed they like, and the wonder of what they do is that they retain their souls and their musicality in spite of the impossible technical demands that they're transcending.

It's true, though, that there's something extra that they have that's missing in certain musical performances.

Speed and accuracy are a surprisingly poor indicator of a musician's ability to move us. I'm sure that we've all been at performances in which the performer simply astonished us with the speed and accuracy of their playing, but we're left with the same empty impression we get from watching the contortionists at the Chinese Circus... that it's amazing what a human being can make himself do, and isn't is simply bizarre that this person has gone to such lengths?

By the same token, I'm sure we've also all been at performances that have been haphazard, slapdash or technically deficient, but have been moved to tears through some ineffable force that the performer has communicated to us.

I'd also argue that specialist perfection is also a poor indicator of a musician's ability to move us. I've heard plenty of "historically correct" performances that were dry and lifeless. Critics of early music tend to call the stuff "bloodless," which, in some cases, is not entirely unjustified. Early music is often sublime, but not always, and the factors that drive whether it moves us or not are often unrelated to the measure of historical accuracy involved.

I'd take a Nicolas Harnoncourt or a Jaap Shroeder recording of the B minor Mass any day, but there's a modern Swiss orchestra recording from the late 50's or early 60's (I'll try to look it up), totally incorrect, modern instruments, A440, Romantic phrasing, but bursting with enthusiasm and passion and verve and joie de vivre, and you can't stop it from bringing a smile to your face.

So, in the end, it's all a little arbitrary, isn't it, this thing called musicianship? There's still something that allows us to say "This is good" and "This is rubbish" but we're still not 100% sure we can put our finger on it, are we?

[Acquavella]

I'm afraid that I disagree. Musicianship or musical interpretation is quite evident and can show the maturity of an artist. Listening to an early music specialist might sound dry to one person but can also demonstrate the subtleties of this music to someone else. Listening to a romantic specialist play baroque music might very well sound energetic and vibrant. I personally like Nigel Kennedy's recording of the Four Seasons. But even within his contemporary interpretation of Vivaldi's works is a wonderful touch of musical phrasing and lyrical playing. It's quite interesting really because Nigel has a wonderful and subtle sense of baroque phrasing within a new rendition of an age old work. The same argument can be applied to early music group, The Red Priest, who's blistering speed can give Thile a run for his money, and quite frankly, win. The difference is that Red Priest have a long history of education and knowledge about this music, which can be heard in their phrasing. In fact they were all early music majors. Yes they are playing Bach, Vivaldi, Teleman and Handel clean and fast but not at the expence of lyrical phrasing.....or should I say Musicianship. No matter what speed we take a piece of music at there is still the defining factor of phrasing and dynamics.

I think the other problem is that a 26 year kid, who is in essence a bluegrasser, can give a "Master Class" in regards to a style of music he knows little about. Don't get me wrong, I like Thile's playing. Not All Who Wander is a cd that frequents my CD player. On the subject of Bluegrass and Newgrass he is definitely an experienced player. But a Master of classical music he is not. To me this is the same thing as Bill Monroe giving a Master Class on Bach or the advanced techniques of Calace. Also, visa versa, it would be farcical for Vengerov, Menuhin or Oistrakh giving a Master Class on bluegrass/newgrass. Thile has been quoted in an article as stating that he has taken the mandolin as far as he can, technically. I find this hard to believe since he doesn't know anything about classical technique, which for the record is not defined by playing clean and fast. No matter style of music we play, it should be clean if anything. If Thile has indeed taken the mandolin as far as he can technically....I recommend he go to music college to experience the full depth of our little instrument and gain a little knowledge about music he is teaching others about.

There is a huge difference listening to someone play Bach (or anything else really)who is still in or just got out of music college compared to 20+ year professional. This is why colleges have "Master Classes". The people giving them are true masters of their instrument. The music they are performing and teaching has matured in their playing for a longer time than Thile has been alive. This is what makes them Masters of their craft. They can and have for many years disected a piece of music and can explain to eager young minds why they are playing it this way or that way. Even if they are not playing a piece "historically accurate", they can explain why that is note for note. A Master has a long lineage of professors and professionals who have all added to that person's education and growth.

Quote: "Early music is often sublime, but not always, and the factors that drive whether it moves us or not are often unrelated to the measure of historical accuracy involved."

That can be said for any style of music. Personally, eventhough I listen to Thile's albums, they generally only last for about two songs before they get replaced by something else. The effect of clean & fast wears off and I end up thirsting for something musical.

Bach is one of those composers that has been argued about over and over and over again. Part of the facination, I think, is that everyone has their own approach. Personally, I would really be interested in hearing Richard perform Bach...or anything from the baroque era. I hear through the grapevine that he is a wonderful baroque violinist.

[Brandon Flynn]

I know Thile wants to do a Bach album (he says he wants to wait until his thirties, because he feels he's not ready for it - ha!), and Mike Marshall has said that Thile had all the partitas on lockdown, so maybe someday. =P

I've heard the same thing, and I hope this is true. I've also heard that in the future he may record a classical album with violinist Hilary Hahn, which would also be great. I think for a recording he would slow the pace down a little and not fly through the piece. He can play the pieces at any pace he so chooses flawlessly, he just chooses to go fast at times. I am beggining to work on the sonatas and partitas, in no particular order, learning them as I can. At the same time I am working on the cello suites, which are much much easier.