Pinky on the pickguard

[jasona]

It assumes nothing except that the person I was responding to made a generalization based on the apparent success of a single person.

In making an insulting statement about the poster's understanding of statistics and logical argument you most definitely assume that a statistically relevant body of data has been gathered proving the poster's observation to be in error, and that an error of logic has occurred as a result. However, from where I'm sitting, the argument here seems to be a battle over whose anecdotal evidence is better. So which is it, the poster making the error of induction (yes, some of us here know more about logic than you give credit), or the assumption of effect where none exists? If you really want to make this argument, do the work and support your position with evidence.

My Here is the only study of this sort with which I am familiar. It says this,

When you closely observe the right hand technique of some of the best mandolin players a pattern seems to emerge. It seems that most of them play with slightly to very opened hand and they drag the tips of their pinky and ring fingers on the pickguard or the top of the mandolin.

Sample size of 16, so one can't generalize from it, but it seems that most of the best sweep the top/pickguard with their right hand but don't plant. Alan Bibey was not part of this survey.

Soupy, I would argue that proper technique is more than a "model to go by". I think it permits one to achieve greater heights by preventing simple mechanical problems from occurring.

[Jim Broyles]

The uniqueness for which a player is known is about musical content more than technique IMHO.

If you are a genius, then the technique is secondary. The rest of us would do well to put more thought into it!

You mean you don't recommend that aspiring jazz guitarists plant all four right hand fingers and play with their thumbs? I'm shocked.

[Nick Triesch]

I feel very lucky that I learned to play with my fingers touching the mando when I play. ( fingerboard extension) and just a tiny bit on the top of mando. I think it has made me a much better player and I see no reason to change. I just want to strive to play like the very best in Bluegrass. Nick

[Alex Fields]

I wouldn't care if the player had NO fingers, and just a stump for a right hand..if the sound he/she made with the mando was "quality," who cares what their fingers are or are not doing!

Proper technique is only that...a model to go by. After that, if you played the strings with your TONGUE and could make it sound great, that's all that matters.

I agree with this. Adam Steffey sounds good and I enjoy listening to him no matter how he plays. The point is just that for someone learning to play, certain techniques are more likely to be beneficial in the long run even if certain professional players don't use those techniques.

The uniqueness for which a player is known is about musical content more than technique IMHO.

I agree with that too. Good technique only serves to open up possibilities and allow you to make good music...it doesn't guarantee good music. And a lot of people with bad technique make good music, but surely we can agree that could probably make even better music if they weren't limited by technique?

How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings

Er. That's if you rest your palm on the strings on the side where you play...we're talking about resting it behind the bridge. Lots of excellent players do this and recommend it as acceptable technique. Chris Thile does. I'm skeptical about relying on this but still, tone and control don't seem to suffer at all from resting very lightly that way.

In making an insulting statement about the poster's understanding of statistics and logical argument you most definitely assume that a statistically relevant body of data has been gathered proving the poster's observation to be in error, and that an error of logic has occurred as a result.

I most certainly do not. All I said was that making an argument that something is okay based on the fact that it works for one person is a logical fallacy, which as a matter of fact it is. My argument was not in any way that statistics had proved the opposite conclusion. And my statement was an expression of frustration with the widespread lack of understanding of the core rules of logic, not an insult. Hence the qualifier, which was not intended sarcastically.

So which is it, the poster making the error of induction (yes, some of us here know more about logic than you give credit), or the assumption of effect where none exists?

There are two different ways to be using induction here and only the first one, which is the way it was being used, is bad--namely, that "here are a few people for whom such and such is effective, therefore it must be effective for everyone." That is a generalization based on inadequate sample size. The other type of induction, that we can experiment with technique and figure out why certain techniques work or don't work instead of relying on statistics about overall results players get, is perfectly acceptable and doesn't depend on a sample size.

One thing I'm sure of that can be demonstrated easily is a tight fist makes a tight wrist. Your wrist will be at its most flexible when your fist is open and your fingers relaxed. Having your fingers relaxed means it is likely that they will brush the top fairly often.

How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings

Er. #That's if you rest your palm on the strings on the side where you play...we're talking about resting it behind the bridge. #Lots of excellent players do this and recommend it as acceptable technique. #Chris Thile does. #I'm skeptical about relying on this but still, tone and control don't seem to suffer at all from resting very lightly that way.

The strings vibrate, they transfer those vibrations to the bridge and the bridge conducts those vibrations to the top. That's how mandolins work.

If you rest your hand on or near the bridge your hand will absorb some of the energy that should have gone to the top. That is muting and is easily proven. Even if your hand is resting very lightly on or near the bridge that big hand will kill a LOT more energy than your pinky could by touching a tiny spot on a large top.

Chris Thile is a good player, but he is totally wrong about this. Playing a really good mandolin allows you to get away with all sorts of bad techniques.

[jasona]

In making an insulting statement about the poster's understanding of statistics and logical argument you most definitely assume that a statistically relevant body of data has been gathered proving the poster's observation to be in error, and that an error of logic has occurred as a result.

I most certainly do not. All I said was that making an argument that something is okay based on the fact that it works for one person is a logical fallacy, which as a matter of fact it is. My argument was not in any way that statistics had proved the opposite conclusion. And my statement was an expression of frustration with the widespread lack of understanding of the core rules of logic, not an insult. Hence the qualifier, which was not intended sarcastically.

It was still insulting in its tone, you should be a little more careful about that.

I think you've missed my point from this paragraph. Without the statistical grounding in what works, what doesn't, all we are left with is a battle of personal preferences and anecdotes. From this light, your statement of preference of right hand technique is logically equal to the other's statement of preference of their right hand technique. Without the implicit assumption of statistical justification, how can you even call Bibey's right hand technique exceptional?

[Edited induction discussion--no one probably cares other than us.]

Obligatory mandolin comment: I'm getting one of Doug Edward's nice pick guards installed when I take my mandolin in for a tuneup and fret dress. I expect it will help keep my right hand in a better position.

[Alex Fields]

Without the statistical grounding in what works, what doesn't, all we are left with is a battle of personal preferences and anecdotes.

Even if that's true my point about the argument being fallacious stands, but I think I responded to this already when I refered to the second type of inductive argument (which may actually be a deductive argument with a probabilistic conclusion come to think of it).

[JeffD]

A free floating right hand can do anything any other right hand position can do and can do them as well. #No other right hand position can do everything a free floating right hand can do as well.

You say that emphatically, but I have seen "experts" disagree on those very points.

In circumstances like this I vote for the flexibilty option, get adept at the technique that helps most the particular part of the music you are attempting to play.

[JeffD]

whereas people who plant have plenty to gain by learning to play with a free right hand.

Well maybe - maybe not. I mean, even if I grant some improvement in playing, how much improvement could I expect, and would it be worth going through the hassle.

For some folks it may, for others it may not.

[JeffD]

I don't want to be rude, but none of these arguments would come up if everyone were familiar with basic logic and/or statistics. #This is textbook generalization fallacy, and textbook assumption based on a poor sample size (which amount to the same thing).

Wait, hang on. I am not sure what you are responding too.

But from a purely logical mathematical point of view, you have a point - you cannot judge by individual examples, and from a statistical point of view your right, there may not be enough examples to make valid analysis.

But since we cannot go back to first principles and mathematically derive a mandolin, and then derive a mandolin technique, and logically provie it to be the best according to some rigid criteria...

Then we have to fall back on some reasonable thinking. And while we could argue all day about whether floating is optimum or not, it is very reasonable, and has been shown many times, that not floating need not hold you back significantly.

I think someone could make the perfectly reasonable judgement based on self assessment, that planting / brushing will not hold them back nearly as much as genetics, available practice time, age, and any of a host of other things.

Now if it could be shown that planting and brushing were as significant in holding one back as, say, never learning to down up down up - then you would have a stronger point. But the mere fact that many successful players don't always free float shows that not to be the case.

Respectfully as always.

[JeffD]

I do agree with Peter (I think it was you, if not I apologize), that what advice you might give to an experienced player looking to improve might be different than what you would give to a beginner. There are ways of beginning that make progress easier and avoid some pitfalls and bad habits.

But there again, I would want to consider the priority of planting / not planting, versus the priority of learning to read music / tab only (oh no, not that again), or the priority of staying away from open strings to make playing up the neck easier, or any of a number of things experienced players wish they had done at the beginning.

[JeffD]

I think where folks get chaffed is in the self rightiousness tone of a proclamation. I hope we can all disagree, even vigerously, without losing our good natures and the basic fun of the discussion.

My two rules then - don't chafe, and don't be too easily chaffed.

[jk245]

I vote pinky ... a slight touch on the pick guard helps me keep wrist orientation

[mythicfish]

Everybody's entitled to my opinion.

[Alex Fields]

Even if your hand is resting very lightly on or near the bridge that big hand will kill a LOT more energy than your pinky could by touching a tiny spot on a large top.

You do realize we're talking about the strings behind the bridge (not the side you play on) and not on top of it right? Resting my palm lightly there, and then not resting it at all, there is no difference in sound. It may technically make some ridiculously slight difference but the difference is not perceivable. And if it were, heck, that would just mean you shouldn't rest your hand there. But I have a good ear for tone and if I can't hear a difference up close on a good mandolin that I'm playing, I'm darn sure nobody else can tell a difference either. And, lol, do you realize that a lot of players (most?) attach grommets to the strings behind the bridge specifically for the purpose of muting them there and preventing them from ringing? Come to think of it the fact that the strings are always muted that way on the mandolins I play may be why I can't hear a difference when I rest my palm.

When people criticize planting on the basis of tone they aren't saying that the pressure of the finger on the wood harms the vibration of the wood or something. They're saying it negatively affects right hand technique in such a way that tone suffers.

One more comment: to say that you have to spread your fingers out away from the hand to prevent your hand from tightening into a fist is ridiculous. Of course you don't want a tight fist, but keeping your fingers loosely curled so that they don't hit the strings or the wood in no way requires you to tighten your hand. It's also possible to keep a basically loose hand with the fingers kindof sticking out, but that actually seems to tighten the back of the hand very slightly while curling the fingers inside doesn't. I don't use any muscle to keep my fingers curled, in fact I rarely if ever use any muscles in any fingers when picking, it's all in the wrist, the hand just stays in place when you hold it right, at least in my experience.

EDIT: I honestly do not mean to be insulting to anyone on here, if I've come across that way I apologize. I'm just so used to arguing about everything that it comes naturally and then on a place like this where it doesn't usually work that way I come across as a lot more of a dick than I really am...but hey I'm an obsessive perfectionist about mandolin playing and it's all in the interest of improving our playing right?

[Alex Fields]

Everybody's entitled to my opinion.

Well, I guess you're entitled to that opinion...but...wait, confusing logic.

<<You do realize we're talking about the strings behind the bridge (not the side you play on) and not on top of it right? >>

Yes, I realize that. You do realize that your hand weighs a whole lot more than four little grommets, right? You do realize that it is impossible to hear the true tone of a mandolin from above and behind it, right?


<< One more comment: to say that you have to spread your fingers out away from the hand to prevent your hand from tightening into a fist is ridiculous. >>

You're right. That is a ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said. I never said one should spread ones fingers out away from the hand. That is your "ridiculous" statement.


<< Of course you don't want a tight fist, but keeping your fingers loosely curled so that they don't hit the strings or the wood in no way requires you to tighten your hand. >>

Oh yes it does. You do realize that it isn't the muscles in your hand that curl your fingers in don't you? It is the muscles in your forearm acting on the tendons that go through your wrist. Make a fist, shake your hand. Curl your fingers inward, shake your hand. Relax your fingers, shake your hand. Unless you have advance arthritis it will be pretty obvious which leaves the wrist more relaxed and flexible.

[Alex Fields]

You do realize that it is impossible to hear the true tone of a mandolin from above and behind it, right?

Yes. It is common practice to turn the instrument so that the front of it is facing your ears when you're listening closely for tone. That's what I do.

That is a ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said. I never said one should spread ones fingers out away from the hand. That is your "ridiculous" statement.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but in that case what did you mean by this: "Your wrist will be at its most flexible when your fist is open and your fingers relaxed. Having your fingers relaxed means it is likely that they will brush the top fairly often." Your fingers are not going to be brushing the top unless they are spread away from the hand unless your anatomy is significantly different from a normal human's or your technique is absolutely bizarre.

Oh yes it does. You do realize that it isn't the muscles in your hand that curl your fingers in don't you? It is the muscles in your forearm acting on the tendons that go through your wrist. Make a fist, shake your hand. Curl your fingers inward, shake your hand. Relax your fingers, shake your hand. Unless you have advance arthritis it will be pretty obvious which leaves the wrist more relaxed and flexible.

My hand IS relaxed when I curl my fingers. In fact if I hold my arm horizontally like I would when playing and totally relaxing all the hand muscles the hand naturally falls into that position. I don't know what you have in mind by a hand position that is 'relaxed' but for me there is no more relaxed position that loosely curled fingers. Anything with fingers more spread out than that requires a lot more tension in the back of the wrist. I can put my left hand on the back of my right and feel it tense up a little when I spread my fingers away from the curled position. So it is 'pretty obvious' that exactly the technique I have been describing is most relaxed and flexible.

[Alex Fields]

I just put my forefinger and thumb together as though I were holding a pick and shook my hand loose and raised it up and here's a picture. Incidentally this is also the position of my right hand when playing, although sometimes I probably extend the fingers holding the pick out a little further.

[jasona]

Nice sweater.

[Alex Fields]

Nice sweater.

Hey, thanks.

On that note I'm going to bow out of this thread. I'd be happy to take up the issue again with anyone in person, mandos in hand, but until then...

<< It is common practice to turn the instrument so that the front of it is facing your ears when you're listening closely for tone. That's what I do. >>

Nope, if you hold your mandolin in that position your right hand cannot possibly be in its normal playing position thus negating the results. The "common" practice is to have someone else play the mandolin while you are in front of it.

And your hand is far from relaxed. Your index finger is extended causing the other fingers to contract. They are all under tension. Since that is a hand position that encourages picking with finger movement rather than wrist movement it wouldn't make much difference for you anyway.

The standard "mandos in hand" argument when one really doesn't understand the theory.

Here's what a relaxed right hand looks like.

[Alex Fields]

Ignoring your other comments I can't resist responding to this one...

None of my fingers are under any tension when I hold my hand like that. My index finger and thumb stay in that position with no muscle control to force them. I use ZERO finger movement when I pick, it is 100% wrist. My fingers are held so loosely that I sometimes drop the pick in the middle of a tune. I frequently stop myself and pay close attention to make sure I am using only wrist, and I am. I have given all of this as much thought and attention as almost anyone. It's fine if you disagree with me but please don't insult my technique based on assumptions about my hands and how I play which are empirically false.