Cadillac sky fired at mountain view, ark

[Cedartop]

I'm not sure if Andy went overboard or not by sending them packing. I can tell you that I have only walked out early on two "bluegrass" shows. One was a group whose name I can't remember but they were recent winners of the best new award at Telluride. The other was Cadillac Sky.

[words2singwith]

Wait until you hear Laura Love screeching as dcoxmandolin man says. I am sure you would walk out on her too.

[Gutbucket]

Laura Love is the new "Janis Joplin"? What a terrible thing to say about a person.

[coletrickle]

The "falling out of traditional-bluegrass" argument coming from the festival side is really rather weak. Certainly this band did not show up to this festival with fresh material aimed at derailing those expecting 20 covers of gospel and I would venture to say that 90+% of their music had been heard in public prior to this festival. Promoters and bookers are responsible for the bands they book, not the other way around. They are not a cover band and live samples of their music is readily accessable online for those who do their homework. Furthermore they are not a gospel band, although they play some gospel numbers, so those expecting a traditional gospel show were either mis-lead by the festival or came unknowing and left unhappy.

Nowhere in the festival side of the matter is the argument made that the band didn't conform to someone's idea of trad bluegrass, or that it didn't play enough gospel songs. Such arguments are attributed by the band to the promoter, but since the band also called him a bunch of names, you have to wonder whether they're really interested in fairly representing his side of the story. All the promoter has actually said on record is that the band was too loud and their tech refused to turn down the volume when asked to do so.

"According to festival director Andy Rutledge, the band didn't live up to the terms of its contract by playing amplified instruments and by straying from traditional bluegrass material"

While that is not a quote from the promoter, seems like this article has become "the" side of the argument.

Did I read something criticising people bringing "other" instruments to bluegrass jam sessions? Come on, with so much clout made for beginners and music lovers to come to jams and be accepted on this site, I would expect bluegrass, of all music, and mando pickers, of all instruments, to be open to out of the box instruments at their jams. Which is worse, creating community with a sax player or having a jam session with three people because it has become so inclusive no one else can get in?

Enough hi-jacking on my part. I apologize.

[mrmando]

"According to festival director Andy Rutledge, the band didn't live up to the terms of its contract by playing amplified instruments and by straying from traditional bluegrass material"

Thanks for the clarification. Makes me curious about that contract, then. Wonder whether and how explicitly it specified trad material and unplugged instruments, or what exactly they played that wasn't trad enough.

It sounds to me as though any concerns about the set list might have been worked out if the band had been willing to turn the volume down ... but I wasn't there.

As for non-trad instruments in bluegrass jams, I'd say it's more about the player than the instrument. I've jammed with some accordion, harmonica, and percussion players who were great musicians and able to play something on their instruments that fit within a bluegrass setting. I've also jammed with fiddlers, banjo pickers, guitarists and singers who hadn't the slightest clue what they were doing and ruined the song by soloing all the way through it, or playing the wrong chords, or not knowing the words, or insisting on doing John Denver covers.

[coletrickle]

mrmando:

Agreed. I really wonder what happened here. Obviously a bit of stubborness on both sides. Perhaps CS felt that the festival was trying to make them be something they don't want to be, and perhaps the festival felt that CS was going out of their way to be difficult and get want they want. I'd say a bit of both. I've worked with plenty of bands as a writer and have helped with festivals and even done some contributions to booking bands and most bands are just great to work with. I just wonder what the festival thought they were getting. Even for our smaller festival, that is anything but a bluegrass-only festival, we spend the whole year researching bands and trying to get a flavor for what they are going to bring.

I'm just having a hard time beliving that CS went out of their way to offend this crowd. That's the sort of thing that over-indulgent rock stars are notorious for, not young bluegrass bands looking to make new fans.

I hear people on the volume issue, but at some point amplification is amplification. In any light, the contract should have stated that the festival reserves the right to control the sound and that each band may bring their own sound person, but that the festival reserves the right to overule any sound man's decision. Perhaps it was there in the ink and we are just arguing about a breech of contract.

One way or another it is a shame that this happens at bluegrass events. We need all the supporters we can get and shedding a negative light on any festival is a step in the wrong direction, regardless of who is at fault. Too bad CS had to throw it out there like that did. Definetley a crass and uncouth way to express their disdain.

[Philip Halcomb]

I won't even mention that they dress like a bunch of dirt bags...

Wow, that's real positive. That's the kind of thing you think to yourself. Anyway, I'll stay away from you, I'd hate to hear what you think about how I dress. Good grief...

[words2singwith]

hmmm I think I would even take 3 banjos over a sax at a jam. did I really say that??

[words2singwith]

ok ok I take it back I take it back

[mrmando]

If CS really did break their contract, then they were lucky to get paid. Bands (or their managers, anyway) should read contracts carefully. On the other hand, if the contract specifies a certain type of music, the promoter shouldn't offer that contract to any band without knowing what the band sounds like. (Sorry, thought I saw the dead horse twitch a little.)

I would really be interested in hearing bluegrass played competently on a saxophone, but I am not holding my breath.

[woodwizard]

I haven't changed my mind. Andy was wrong. I agree with someone who said let's just seperate Andy from Mt. View because it's a great little town.
The town just needs to get rid of him looks like to me. He went overboard on this. No doubt in my mind. That's just the way I see it. Unbeleaveable IMHO

[mandolirius]

<I haven't changed my mind. Andy was wrong.>

I think it's pretty hard for anyone who wasn't there and involved in the situation to say who was, or wasn't wrong. If paying customers were complaining about the volume, perhaps leaving or demanding a refund, I think you'd agree the promoter has to do something. If it was as simple as him asking for a lower volume level and being refused (assuming that issue was not covered in the contract), I'd have a hard time saying the promoter was wrong. Since the band got paid, I'm going to assume the promoter had no contractual leverage over the band on the matter of volume level, and was left with only the bad options of letting them continue to antagonize his fan base for four more sets or cut his losses and dismiss them. In that case, I could actually sympathize. It's a rotten spot to be in. So for now, the whole thing goes into my "not enough information" file.

[allenhopkins]

Years ago our little folk festival had a problem –– a group (four women, oddly enough) who dropped "f-bombs" on stage, threw condoms into the audience (!), and totally grossed out the festival chair. He wanted to send them packing, albeit after paying them what we'd contracted. Intercession by another of the performers, and a little heart-to-heart behind the main stage, smoothed things over and the event went on as advertised.

I would never stick up for the Mountain View promoter; I think what he did was unconscionable, and (without ever hearing Cadillac Sky) would maintain that a band that shows up and plays its music as contracted should never get treated as they were. I only offer the minor mitigating opinion, that many of the smaller community festivals are put on by volunteers who do it out of love for the music, get no compensation, and often are less versed in the ways of the music "biz" than the musicians they hire. That's not an excuse for making bad and unprofessional decisions, but it may lead to some understanding of why things go so wrong now and then.

I used to read articles written by musicians complaining about how they were treated on the folk club/coffeehouse/small festival circuit, and, while I sympathized as a part-time musician who'd experienced some unprofessional treatment, I also realized that at a lot of these venues, the performer is the only one getting paid (well, possibly the sound person). As I said, not an excuse for behaving like a jerk, but perhaps a perspective on why it happens sometimes.

[Peter Hackman]

Quite generally, when you hire a group you hire a name, a trademark. There's really no accounting for changes in personnel or musical style. Band members come and go, living music is changing music.

It's hard to believe that a highly original group was contracted to do "traditional material" or even "traditional music", according to some specified genre, as tradition survives by change.

So what was the real issue?

As for volume, there's a separate thread on that important topic. Suffice it to say that the level of one group determines the way you hear - or don't - the next group, so there has be some kind of consensus or coordination here. Don't ask me how.

Incidentally, judging from the sound clips on myspace, Cadillac Sky is a very traditional-sounding band. According to SOME tradition.

[Jonathan Peck]

I won't even mention that they dress like a bunch of dirt bags...

Wow, that's real positive. That's the kind of thing you think to yourself. Anyway, I'll stay away from you, I'd hate to hear what you think about how I dress. Good grief...

In all seriousness, when I'm paying to see a ticketed show, I would like to see a band who looks more like a group of professionals than a garage grunge band. If that's the image that they are after, well then ok, but if you want to be non traditional then you open yourself up for critisism. If you think that people want to pay to suffer through loud music, that's ok also. If you want to refuse to turn it down after being asked by the person paying you, that's not ok.

I seriously hope that the band appologizes and moves on. It's bound to get around that the band is loud and difficult to work with. This could hurt them in the long run.

[Jonathan James]

If you read the story on this on Bluegrass Review that Ted posted (http://www.personalbee.com/371/22916213), you'll see a comment at the bottom from one of the band members, Bryan. There he states that they turned down the volume each time the promoter requested they do so...

[laddy jota]

You mean that the guy who hires you can fire you if he doesn't like your work? That's not fair.

[lgc]

I think that them posting the term "bluegrass nazi" is horrible. It is too serious a reference to use to equate the promoter to a group who committed genocide. I think it shows a real lack of maturity and a high level of ignorance on thier part. If thier business presentation was anything like their letter then I think the promoter has a much higher level of implied credibility. To me it sounds like they haveNO understanding of history let alone tradition. Bluegrass nazi indeed.

[Klaus Wutscher]

I think that them posting the term "bluegrass nazi" is horrible. #

My thoughts exactly.

Regarding the business end of it, I assume that the band got paid? If yes, there is not much to complain about. Live music is (among other things) a service bands offer in exchange for money. If they got paid and their service is not wanted, so be it.Grin and bear it. Finding out what the problem is may be a good move and may or may not provide an opportunity to rethink the musical approach. But dragging the matter on the internet is not a smart move, imo. They will not be invited back anyway, so why make a fuss about it? I never heard of the band before, and from now on, I will remember them as "that band that got fired at some festival". Nice introduction.

Of course, if they did not get paid, that´s another issue...

Yet another thing: any decent festival has a sound guy. In that case, volume level is not an issue that any band is resposible for. If nobody is running the sound and the bands are mixing themselves , what kind of festival is this anyway?

[woodwizard]

A lot of people are trying to make a point about the loud volume and CS not turning it down but as was mentioned by one of the band members in a statement the volume was turned down everytime they were asked ...to the point of only being able to hear the monitors. At this point who knows what really happened unless you were actually there. If it went down the way CS said I think that what they said about Andy afterwards was pretty low key. The way I read the Nazi discription was kinda halfway a joke to get the point across that they were grossly mistreated. You have to put yourself in their shoes. I'm sure they love Bluegrass and feel they are playing and trying to do their part to keep Bluegrass alive. So when someone tells you that you don't play Bluegrass and that you're fired ...there was most likely some severe hurting going on to the band. I don't think the nazi statement was very cool to say but it got the point across to me. I hope things work out for both sides and it all smooths out. A lot of people are going to make a judgement and have an opinion from reading all the info available (most of us here are all pretty opinionated), but who knows what really happened. (unless you were there) Right

[Jonathan Peck]

A lot of people are going to make a judgement and have an opinion from reading all the info available (most of us here are all pretty opinionated), but who knows what really happened. (unless you were there) Right

Actually, it looks like the band is trying to get back at the promoter via the virtual lynch mob. Looks like this plan has backfired, to me anyway. Hurt, no. P.O'd and looking for revenge is more like it. Looks like they've made one dumb decision after another.

In the interest of fairness, how many bands has the promoter fired? Is this the only one or is there a history here? It's very odd that the band is painting this promoter as some type of over the top comic book villian

[MandoBen]

... I assume that the band got paid? If yes, there is not much to complain about.

Exactly. There is nothing to complain about.

[Tim]

One other perspective - On the band's myspace page, there was a message from a fan saying she was looking forward to seeing them at that festival. If she showed up just to see them and missed their first (and only set) is she entitled to a refund?

[lgc]

"The way I read the Nazi discription was kinda halfway a joke to get the point across"

Again, if a group has so little historical understanding to find that funny or appropriate then I can't imagine they have any understanding of tradition or respect either.

[dan@kins]

If a promoter hired my group, then fired us following our first set (for whatever reason), I'd certainly want to get that info on the internet and warn other bands.

To me it sounds like heavy mis-communication.