4 string or 8 string model w/ midi

[Turner Burner]

i have an RMC acoustic gold pickup system without an instrument to install it on. i am trying to decide if i should get a 4 strings solid body built (jonathan mann, for example), or if I go for an 8 string model, using the RMC pickup. it seems that the double strings would screw up the midi tracking.

here's my question, when thinking about the Brian Moore P5, the closest comparison i can find:


does anybody know if the Brian Moore P5 midi mandolin (w/ RMC divided saddle pickups) tracks one string, or both? from what i have read, it looks like 1 string sends the midi signal (even though it's an 8 string design). but i called the company and guy said that it tracks each double course (that's hard to believe). he also said that they aren't building any for at least 6 months.

i don't see how, using an RMC pickup, that only one string would activate each pickup. the pickup has to receive the vibrations of both strings, right? but everything i have read indicates that trying midi from double strings is not desirable because of the extra vibrations.

if i can get an 8 string midi capable, seems like that would be more desirable over the 4 string model.

any help on this would be good.

[mandroid]

The double string are both on the same piezo.
Godin uses 4 on their 8 string A8, combined at the preamp EQ
and Mono output.

the Brian Moore uses the same element, in a different type of mount for individual intonation,length .
but its still pairs
Both combined on one piezo signal. a sum of 2 strings.

I'd suggest single string pickups for divided pitch to midi schemes.
because pairs have to be kept in exact unison.BM uses locking tuners, so may be more stable, ..May..

if the GR20 is like the 30 and 33, they stop having anything above a high octave G on an E string ,
so I like a mandola CGDA tuning
you take in more of the lower octave patches that way.

GI20 with a separate MIDI module, keyboard, and offers more optional program PC boards
may write more into the higher frequencys. all 88 notes on the piano, at least.
if you can deal with longer Octave scale and have extended range
perhaps a 6,5,4,3 input can yield interesting tones and there is a GR program split
on 6&5 so some can be a different instrument in 2 string separations. 6,5/4,3.

Someone said they set one up with all the strings the same pitch and size, and
used the synth to make the pitch outputs different tunings.
interesting.

Here I've got set:acoustic Gold /polydrive 2, a blackbox with mono and 13 pin outputs,
also 3 band EQ, V for synth and 2nd V, dry from pickups, Roland compatable S1,S2 .

cutom made wooden low profile bridge with inset piezo pieces,
retrofitted onto instrument already with a magnetic pickup,
also, ST pickups on a "Pentaula" 15" 5 string [Bb,F,C,G,D/A,E,B.F#,C#]

[foldedpath]

I'd go for the 4-string/single course solution. It's easy enough to simulate a double course setup with delay or pitch shift, or even a Midi sample, if you really need it. The main bugaboo with Midi is getting clean tracking, and I can't imagine this being easier with double course strings.

Disclaimer... I've never tried this with a mandolin, but I do have two guitars with RMC hex piezo pickups driving a Roland VG-88, a VG-99, and an Axon pitch-to-Midi converter. It's not easy getting clean, glitch-free Midi from a fretted instrument, even with single strings.

[mandelect]

I remember reading this article a while back:emusician.com - ref Brian Moore P5 Mandolin
It clearly states that;

"The company also offers the P5 MIDI mandolin controller ($3,795). The mandolin has eight strings (see Fig. 3), though only one of each pair of strings outputs MIDI. This is an understandable design choice because MIDI guitar converters don't output more than six channels at once."

Don't know how reliable the info is though!

If both strings are sending pitch info then string bending (using midi) might be problematic - it would emphasise any tuning discrepancies between each string in the pair, as each string in the pair would bend by a slightly different amount? With this in mind, I think you need to take the styles of music you play into account. Double courses would perhaps suggest a more traditional style of playing while single courses would help with string-bending and more guitar like tones.

My personal preference is for 4 single course strings, tuned as Mandroid does (CGDA), or DAEB (tone above 'dola). Steve Ryder has experience with midi, synth access mandolins but I don't know if he has experimented with double courses; my Ryder EM-54 tracks beautifully.

[BlueMountain]

I've never played synth mandolin, but I used to have a Godin Multiax Jazz and a Roland synth system. I've also played had a couple of the Roland synth pickups that are add-ons and played a Fender that came with one. The Roland pickups aren't worth much, even on the fender, because they have serious tracking errors--a lot of the notes didn't play. By contrast, the RMC pickup system on the Godin is terrific--very few tracking errors. This is partly because the saddles are the pickups.

Lots of instruments just didn't sound very good with a guitar providing the MIDI signal, and always it's necessary to play the guitar phrasing the way one would play the original instrument if it's to sound right. (For example, you can't play two notes on a sax at the same time, so chords are out.) There were about a dozen instruments that I found particularly effective and enjoyed using, especially with long notes, including some trumpets and saxes. Sometimes I'd use an orchestra to back up someone. It was fun to be backing up some singers and come out with some mellow tenor sax, and people are wondering where that's coming from.

I agree with the poster who suggested a mandola with single strings, though a five string would be nice. I found that on guitar, I was doing most of my playing between about the 7th and 12th frets on the middle strings, and that fits in pretty well with mandola played on the lower frets. It was rare that I needed really high notes--primarily when playing a wailing trumpet or sax solo.

Just don't expect it to sound very much like a mandolin.

[steve V. johnson]

I'll assume that you're not going to run a midi module just to use a mandolin patch to mix with your mandolin's sound, and that you're going to make other sounds with the midi output... #

I've done a lot of stuff with Roland guitar midi over the years, and I'd certainly agree that single-string set-up would simplify the tracking. # Most of the time I've use guitar (bass, EWI, etc.) controllers to create midi information that I recorded in a sequencer program, where the data can be edited / manipulated after its recorded. # In live applications it's even more important to send out only data from the instrument output that's going to be used. #It seems that simple is very good.

I've found that it's really useful to use data filtering, either at the midi input box (after the midi pickup) such as the ones mentioned above, or if you record the midi into a sequencer, the filtering can be done there, at the sequencer's input. #I prefer to filter the data as closely to the instrument as I can, so that the data stream is thinned early on. #

"Continuous controller" information from plucked-string instruments is enormous, as the pickup senses and repeats all the string motions, and often doesn't help with the accuracy of the tracking or the clarity of the secondary sound (that is, the sound that the midi information is triggering). #

In some cases I've filtered out all the continuous controller information coming from the instrument, so that only the note on, note off, and pitch are output, and added all the other stuff later in the sequencer/editor. # But that's pretty radical. #A lot of the data can be left in, but the continuous controllers generate sooo much information that leaving it out really helps to keep the pitches and durations from getting squirrely.

stvmidinerd

[mandroid]

Brian Moore offers an optional USB output, these days , that would be interesting,
I wonder who makes those circuit boards?
.. its separate from the synth access 13 pin stuff, one supposes.

I've seen whole China made electric guitars with USB outputs too.
for same price, or less, than BM add on charge. about 200 dollars.
[I expect the latter to be an A/D conversion , nothing more]

[foldedpath]

Brian Moore offers an optional USB output, these days , that would be interesting,
I wonder who makes those circuit boards?

I've seen whole China made electric guitars with USB outputs too.
for same price as BM upgrade charge. about 200 dollars.

Ugh... I hate seeing USB touted as a solution for pitch-to-Midi conversion. The #1 problem with this technology is accurate pitch recognition, and right behind that is the problem of latency. If too many milliseconds are used in processing before you hear the note, it doesn't feel like you're playing an instrument any more. For a fretted string instrument player, the "touch" goes out the window.

That's why my current rig for Midi guitar is a basic Axon AX 100 into a rackmount wavetable synth (Yamaha Motif Rack ES). No computer soundcard and OS software drivers in the way to add latency. It's responding as fast as it can, in pure hardware. Okay, not actually "pure hardware" but the OS is there to do only one thing, not multitask your web browsing, word processing, and computer games.

I think we're getting close to doing this on computers, but if you've tried the current generation... well, I don't think we're there yet. Not unless your computer is a LOT lower latency than mine, which is possible. I do think we'll get there eventually, but I'm not sure we're there yet.

P.S. man, I can't believe I just posted that on a mandolin forum. But it does seem that some others here are interested in this stuff.

[mandroid]

Funny thing about curiosity , its rarely logical.

[delsbrother]

What does this stuff sound like? Anyone have a clip to post?

[Turner Burner]

thanks for the replies. the issue i'm thinking about here is, does it make sense to order another 4 string midi capable mando, or should i go for an 8 string (and maybe just remove half the strings). the latter is more universal and may be easier to re-sell at some point, but everything i read says midi must be 4 string.

i had previously read the Brian Moore P5 excerpt above, and that confused me because i have an RMC pickup and i don't see how when two strings are touching the pickup can it sense and send the signal only from one (it makes sense that the pickup would sum the two strings, but if they weren't 100% in tune the results would sound terrible).

so that's why i called brian moore and the rep said the pickups track both strings, and then he said they work flawlessly (of course ... salesman), but that they are not producing any of these again till summer '08. it was not very helpful.

anyway, i have a RMC pickup system that needs a home. i don't want to retrofit any of my existing instruments, so i am looking to have a another custom one built. (i am actually talking with alembic in california about their first EM4). so, i think that's the route i'll take - more "traditional" 4 string version.

by the way, similar to Foldedpath, i am using an Axon 100 controller and a Yamaha Motif Rack ES for sounds. the primary purpose for my use of midi is to access other instrument sounds as fills, background, texture, etc in the stuff we play. my feeling is that each of the custom electric instruments, both 4 string and 8 string versions, are pieces of art (my rationalization for MAS gone wild). since there are only a dozen or so builders in the US who make these really great mandolins, so i'm trying to collect as much "playable art" as i can.

T

[mandroid]

By being the sum of 2 vibrating strings,
if they are out of phase they also subtract from each other, thats where the problem is heard.
It isn't an issue if they are all collected into a monaural analog output, such as the onboard V+EQ preamp Used by Godin.

Using the 4_2 notch pickup pieces in a nice amplified mandolin,
would be a worthy effort.
note: RMC is also the source of the Preamp.

It's the analog to digital conversion, I'd think,
that really makes the phase conflict obvious.

Dellsbro will find tight, highly produced ,fusion band ,recorded clips on the brian moore guitars website.