Amplifying an octave

[McSteve]

Folks:

After months of waiting for a Garrison OM that never came and a few more weeks of searching for a replacement, I actually stumbled into a decent, slightly used Trinity College Octave locally. Interestingly enough, this one already has an Allen tailpiece installed. I’ll be looking at it tomorrow so hopefully it works out. It is always great to save money and though I was looking for something a little better, this is a deal that might be impossible to resist – and it is my first OM. Even if this one isn't to my liking, I'm most likely going to have to install a pick-up on anything I get.

In any event, I’m interested in people’s thoughts on how to best amplify this instrument. I’m a novice at pick-ups and was looking for advice. A local dealer had suggested a McIntyre Mandolin Pick-up (I think its one below the “Mandolin Feather” – contact mic under the soundboard secured with adhesive putty) as a good bet. Another dealer told me that I’d be better off with an under the saddle pick-up like a Fishman (this one appeared to have some sort of replacement bridge) as the contact microphones where very susceptible to people “bumping” the top. Another dealer sang the praises of a “Schatten Pick-up” – similar to the Fishman replacement bridge – Schatten is a Canadian company that I understand makes some decent stuff. The only things these dealers had in common was that they were pushing the equipment in their existing inventory – I could tell I wasn’t getting objective advice.

What would the good people of the café suggest? This thing will mostly be played mostly in jam sessions (maybe at a pub) and in my basement. I usually look for the “second best” choice out there. You know, the “best” costs $300 and the next best (last years “state-of-the art”) is now $100 or so – the best bang for the buck. I don’t mind spending an extra $50 or so to get something decent but I don’t think I want to get into a $300 pick-up. Say, something in the $80 - $125ish range…

What can people tell me about under the saddle vs. contact mics? Are there any particular set-ups that people would recommend for an octave?

Thanks!!!

[Joe Mendel]

Check out K & K. I haven't heard one in a octave, but the Pure Western Mini sounds great in a guitar and the Mandolin Twin sounds great in the mandolins I've heard them in.
http://www.kksound.com/index.html

[groveland]

I was down this road a couple times on bouzouki and cittern. (I am still experimenting.) One of those happens to be a TC. (Disclaimer: I am not an acoustic amplification expert.) A couple of things I learned:

K&K makes decent stuff and for the money, I don't think you can ask for more. I prefer the EMG jack design (like what Rigel used) over Switchcraft jacks they use, but the Switchcraft (with all its washers and nuts and fishing it through holes with coat hangers) is fine.

It's absolutely true about the "contact microphones where very susceptible to people 'bumping' the top." With every pickstroke and brush of your palm you're going to hear it - If, that is, you go with the 'conventional wisdom' of placement of the pickups. I get the impression that on guitars, common practice is to mount the piezos just behind and under the bridge. Maybe good for guitar, bad thing for bouzouki and long citterns, IMO anyway. And it depends on the instrument, too. On my Moon, there is simply too much vibration at any point, except for toward the outer edge of the instruments. On my TC, that's not the case, as the top is about twice as thick. I found a number of acceptable spots on the TC. The bottom line is, do not affix the pickup permanently - You'll be experimenting a lot.

I ended up with one K&K (half of a Twin Spot Internal) on the outer edge of the Moon, treble side, for acoustic highs, and a standard EMG guitar pickup in the soundhole for lows and mids. I run them out in stereo and mix them to taste. This is not the ultimate, yet, but I will say I prefer the mix of the magnetic and piezo - Magnetic has a great string response and the piezo brings in the wood, I think. There are products out there designed like this and that looks like the next experiment.

[Huda]

Hi all,

What about using a Pick Up The World in-line pickup?

I have heard good things about them, but what exactly are they? Are they piezo pickups, or something else entirely?

Thanks!

[steve V. johnson]

I use Pick-Up The World pickups, and I love the sound and reliability. I use the #27 models, which are a single mylar strip attached to a wire and installed inside the instrument on the bridge plate. They come with adhesives and very clear and concise instructons about how to mount them. David Enke, the proprietor of PUTW, and the other folks at PUTW are very accessible and very helpful should you need to consult with them.

These pickups are called "acoustic soundboard transducers," and get both the mechanical energy from the instrument and the
"air" and resonance from the body cavity. I became interested in them because I was disgusted with the "quack," as it's called of distorted attack transients from under-saddle transducer pickups.

The bad news: 1) It takes a bit of fiddling (not a lot, tho...) to find the right place for the pickup strip, so working thru the soundhole is necessary. My wonderful wife, Min Gates, has become expert in the placement of PUTW #27s because of her
smaller hands, and we're both much better with luthiers' and dentists' mirrors than we ever expected. PUTW also makes a
specific mandolin pickup with a strip that's to mount under the bridge foot (or feet). There have been some mixed reports
on it here in the Cafe forums, and I've never used, nor heard one.

2) The wire from the pickup to the endpin must be suspended in the midst of the body cavity, otherwise it is susceptible to
mechanical noise. If it rubs against anything, you'll hear it. Not terribly difficult to remedy, in our experience. Likewise there
can be some mechanical sound from the player touching the body of the instrument. In my instruments when the pickup was
mounted on the bridge plate between the X-bracing, and not touching the X braces themselves, the mechanical transmissions
were insignificant.

3) While it's not strictly necessary, a preamp is a good partner for these pickups. PUTW makes several models that are very small, properly powerful, and produce a wonderfully clean audio signal. I use the (no longer made) Raven Labs PMB-II or a
contemporary D-Tar Solstice, and both of these have two inputs and channels (each with I/O gain and 3-band EQ) so I'm happy that I can easily switch between bouzouki and guitar.

Going into an instrument amplifier or right into a PA, the preamps not necessary but they are wonderful to use and versatile.

4) PUTW #27 <$100; D-Tar Solstice $328 online.

I don't know how this would match up to your uses ("jam session," 'maybe pub,' and "basement"), but I'm really happy that the PUTW/preamp combination sounds -just- like my instruments wherever I need to plug in.

Alternatively, there are some Baggs acoustic soundboard transducers, some with onboard preamps, too, that have worked very well in other folks' guitars, and others' Big Mandos, too.

I hope this helps,

stv

[zoukboy]

I'll put in a word here for the B-Band AST (acoustic soundboard transducer) and the A-1 preamp. I've used these in a bunch of different instruments, with both fixed and floating bridges, and they always work well and sound great. here's their website: http://b-band.com

As Steve said with the PUTW soundboard transducer, you need to work with it to find the best placement but it is really worth it.

Disclosure: I am a B-Band endorser. Do I use their pickups because they give me a deal? No. Do I endorse them because I would use and recommend them anyway? Yes!

[otterly2k]

My Dean OM has a McIntyre Feather pickup, and I'm happy with the way it sounds. I haven't compared it directly to other pickups, so I can't offer that perspective.

[Huda]

Hi,

All of these suggestions sound great. However, my big hands won't fit inside the little OM sound hole!

Can you guys suggest a pickup that goes between the bridge and the body, and has an external 1/4" jack?

Is it possible to do this without having wires visible on the outside of the body?

Also, I'd like to get away from contact mikes that are susceptible to people bumping the top.

Any thoughts?

[Danny Packer]

Well Roger certainly has more cred than I, but I also love my b-band. No fuss. No muss. good sound.

danny

[steve V. johnson]

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/products.htm

Variety. Smorgasbord. Maybe something that will do...

stv

[rohan]

I tried the K&K on a TC with mixed results. The buttons were mounted behind the bridge and tended to loose a bit. The chief problem was with the jack connection. Not reliable. The jack mount used some of that double sided tape that proved to be difficult to remove when I uninstalled the unit. Maybe I'll give the Macintyre 'Fether' a tryout.