Standard notation vs tab

[mandocrucian]

The Cafe has chosen the sadistic method of TAB only

This is because no jpgs or gifs are required. It's simply a "text" message (as is ABC code). Tab can be made with just the keyboard and a courier font.

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I find it baffling that correlating note names to the particular stings/frets seems to be so problematic for some, and especially those who already play another instrument (and read). #A beginner who knows nothing about note names, scales, reading a clef, this is understandable in conjunction with the coordinational struggles of making the fingers go where the are supposed to while striking the correct string with pick held the other hand.

You just map out the fretboard like you do the roads and streets of a new town. You start with the main routes as basic reference points and branch out from there.

The fretboard... you don't even need to have the instrument in your hands to learn this stuff.

(What's really ironic is that the more streamlined and efficient the learning system/method becomes...it seems the less mando "students" want anything to do with it.)

Niles H

[Peter Hackman]

[QUOTE= (sinebar @ Oct. 04 2007, 08:28)]

But, anyway, where's the learning curve in something you already know?

I was refering to learning where the notes are on the mandolin so I could apply the notation.

If you have the reading ability, and the kind of musical literacy that
supposedly goes with it, it will greatly aid your understanding of the fretboard.

It did to me, although I've virtually never played anything
on mandolin from sheet music. There are patterns that easily translate
across the strings and along the fretboard, from one key to another. Not quite like the flute where I understand fingering gets less natural or logical
the further you move from the key of C.

[entau]

"Yeah the music can definately be played on the flute. Especially Irish trad which a lot was written for the penny whistle. But to me bluegrass just doesn't sound right on the concert flute. Maybe the tone is too pure"

well you would know better than me - but I couldn't disagree more-

check out Matt Ekle of the David Grisman Quartet-
true it's not really trad BG- but if anybody can pull it off -

I'm sure you are familiar with Robert Dick - doing Jimi Hendrix on the flute - not bluegrass but same concept

mandolin players have been known to play ( or attempt) music written for penny whistle - accordian- cello - clarinet - saxaphone, trumpet, flute, bagpipes, piano- well maybe not for tuba but....
granted some adaptation is required

[jk245]

I like both, notes above tab, such as MZ, Niles' and Grisman's old books maintain. Notes have way of visually showing the flow that TAB does not. It's all good.

Musical notes are prettier than roman numeral tab

[Dan Voight]

Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.

[ApK]

Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.

[Klaus Wutscher]

As a longtime mandolin player who just picked up the flute (and learning standard notation in the process) I feel that there are hardly two instruments that could be more different, but they make a great match. What they have in common is that at the very first glance they seem to be not too complicated, but get real tricky real soon (embrochure/proper right hand technique on mandolin). The fingering on flute is less logical than the patterns on the mando, but then again, you have to learn much less fingerings due to overblowing - but embrochure easly makes up for that convenience


Notation vs tab: As tab does not indicate rythm, you either use it together with notation (in that case, you can learn from notation and consult tab for fingerings) or you use it together with a tune (from a recording, typically)so you can hear the rythm. This might actually be a good ear training, so in that case, tab may be quite useful. Tab is cool. But people who only relate on tab limit themselves quite a bit, while a few weeks of work could open them a whole new world of music. Been there, done that!

[jmcgann]

Quote (woodnbronze24 @ Oct. 04 2007, 22:59)
Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.



============================================

Many tab readers don't understand why tab is inferior, because they don't understand chord/melody relationships, and how crucial hearing those connections are. Notation SHOWS you the relationships, presupposing that you know what to look for (it ain't rocket surgery, either).

Without ears, neither tab nor standard notation will get you further than 'reciting the notes'.

If you don't understanding why standard notation is a better form of communication in the long run, this article might help explain why tab is a fine shortcut and fingering/position aid that works, but doesn't allow you to see 'under the hood' of music in a way that ultimately helps you to CREATE YOUR OWN.

For those uninterested in theory or standard notation, skip it and enjoy playing from tab. It's better to play from tab than not play at all, but if you are frustrated with "not knowing what to play" other than versions of tunes learned from tab, this article might introduce you to concepts that ultimately will free your behind to be more creative

PS- Klaus, the reason much tab has no rhythmic notation is that many tab readers don't know how to interpret it, since they haven't dealt with standard notation (yet?). As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".

[Steve L]

. As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".

This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.

[Klaus Wutscher]

As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".

I read a quote by a famous guitarist (can´t remember which) saying that tab produced a generation of players who cannot read notation and can´t read tab either. Niles commented something to the same effect above (about teaching). It seems that the more information is readily available and is spoonfed to us "the easy way, DVD with tab including a slow version", the more disfunctional most of us become as musicians (this side of professionals, of course). Young picker 30/40 years ago would have KILLED for all the mandolin methods, tune books, instruction books, DVDs...(and for a device to play them, of course) that gather dust on my shelf. How often did I really sit down to trascribe a song from a record? Hardly ever, because the information is readily available...

[AlanN]

This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.

Well, I know the benefit of practicing with a metronome, but....CAUTION AHEAD: DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS....QUIT READING IF YOU'RE SICK OF SEEING ANOTHER OF THESE THINGS (so-and-so doesn't use one)

<Ahem>

I pulled out the old Frets issue of Hot Pickers on the cover, has an interview with Tony Rice, where he specifically discusses the metronome. I wish I had the interview here, but the gist is he does not (did not, it's from the 80's) use one, as he picks ahead/behind to suit his thing at the time, and the metronome gets in the way of that.

Mind you, I am not advocating one way or the other, just being ace reporter.

[JeffD]

I find it baffling that correlating note names to the particular stings/frets seems to be so problematic for some, and especially those who already play another instrument (and read).

I think you under-estimate the "head space" of a woodwind compared to that of a stringed instrument. I know for me, (many years ago now), the transition from clarinet/bassoon to mandolin was a leap.

Most of the woodwinds progress within a scale, like a clarinet progresses in the C scale. What I mean is that the simplest most straight forward movement one finger at a time up and down will yield a C scale. All the sharps and flats are side keys or alternate fingerings or pinky keys, or non-intuitive doubling of keys. (The bassoon has four or five thumb keys for the right hand for crying out loud.) So to play a chromatic scale requires a lot of "off track" manuvering.

This is nothing to the experienced player of course, but it does tend to creat a mindset where the C scale is "home" and everything else is an excursion from home, and the natural feeling progression is a major scale.

I can appreciate that for some it would not be obvious, upon first encountering a stringed instrument, that the frets go up a chromatic scale, and that C is a scale really no different from any other major scale, just shifted up or down, left or right.

The mandolin is layed out so rationally, compared to the bassoon for example. I can't imagine going from the mandolin to a woodwind - it would be like abandoning logic.

Thats my experience anyway.

[Klaus Wutscher]

I pulled out the old Frets issue of Hot Pickers on the cover, has an interview with Tony Rice, where he specifically discusses the metronome. I wish I had the interview here, but the gist is he does not (did not, it's from the 80's) use one, as he picks ahead/behind to suit his thing at the time, and the metronome gets in the way of that.

Anyone who knows that the metronome is not useful for him anymore because he "broke on through to the other side" after thousands of hours of practice and playing with timing obsessed bandleaders like JD Crowe is likely having good reasons to practice the way he does.

Still, as long as someone is not able to play dead on the beat/offbeat in different grooves and speeds even on a bad day, the TR rule does not apply...

[Scott Tichenor]

Not that it matters, but some background on the tab archive for those of you who might find a tidbit here to bloviate on further.

The Cafe tab archive was started in early 1996 when the web was an entirely different world. There were strange things many of you never had the pleasure of experiencing. Like dial-up modems. As someone who reads standard fairly well--personally I'd never buy a book that's just tab--and has had a stack of jazz fake books, fiddle tune collections, choro books, etc., etc., for years, when I figured out you could easily put up a tune that was 2K (important then) I thought, no harm there. Haven't really actively developed much there in the past 5-6 years. In my mind, it's just not that important on this site, but you can't tell that from the traffic there and the downloads.

Fact is, after teaching mandolin students for 25 years, most are simply never going to embrace standard notation. Not sure why. Maybe it harks back to memories of evil grade school teachers forcing repeated singings of Kum ba yah.

So, that brings me to the opinion that all of this chit-chat about "tastes great", "less filling", simply isn't important. If you wish to be a (warning, oxymoron ahead) professional mandolin player, maybe. If you wish to read standard or not, same. For 99% or likely higher, it *really* doesn't matter other than eternal suffering under the opprobrium of being a tab reader and the need for some to criticize what they don't practice. Curious.

Another point is, there's an endless source of standard, so why would anyone want to publish versions of mandolin breaks by various authors? Too much of what I call "mandolin inbreeding" generated by that.

So, John. When are you going to walk the talk and discontinue the tab that appears in almost every single publication you've authored?

[lgc]

People talk so much about the tab/notation thing here. Use your ears. They are the best tool a musician has.

[Scott Tichenor]

People talk so much about the tab/notation thing here. Use your ears. They are the best tool a musician has.

Another good point.

Here's a recommendation for Debora Chen's book for those of you interested. Same book at Elderly.

[AlanN]

I, for one, dig that tab archive, it's like an old shoe you don't want to throw out, and I occasionally go there and look around, there are some hip tunes in there.

[Steve L]

This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.

Well, I know the benefit of practicing with a metronome, but....CAUTION AHEAD: DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS....QUIT READING IF YOU'RE SICK OF SEEING ANOTHER OF THESE THINGS (so-and-so doesn't use one)

<Ahem>

I pulled out the old Frets issue of Hot Pickers on the cover, has an interview with Tony Rice, where he specifically discusses the metronome. I wish I had the interview here, but the gist is he does not (did not, it's from the 80's) use one, as he picks ahead/behind to suit his thing at the time, and the metronome gets in the way of that.

Mind you, I am not advocating one way or the other, just being ace reporter.

When I get a kid who's been studying for two months and plays like Tony Rice I'll be sure and let you know.

[AlanN]

Hey, there are loads of kids out there who do just that, at least what I see/hear around these parts. And more being created every day.

And I don't get it - I just report on a documented, real-world viewpoint from a world-class guitarist, and thread contributors write stuff that borders on 'jumping on your case'. Relax, folks, it's just music...

[sinebar]

Quote (woodnbronze24 @ Oct. 04 2007, 22:59)
Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.



============================================

Many tab readers don't understand why tab is inferior, because they don't understand chord/melody relationships, and how crucial hearing those connections are. Notation SHOWS you the relationships, presupposing that you know what to look for (it ain't rocket surgery, either).

Without ears, neither tab nor standard notation will get you further than 'reciting the notes'.

If you don't understanding why standard notation is a better form of communication in the long run, this article might help explain why tab is a fine shortcut and fingering/position aid that works, but doesn't allow you to see 'under the hood' of music in a way that ultimately helps you to CREATE YOUR OWN.

For those uninterested in theory or standard notation, skip it and enjoy playing from tab. It's better to play from tab than not play at all, but if you are frustrated with "not knowing what to play" other than versions of tunes learned from tab, this article might introduce you to concepts that ultimately will free your behind to be more creative

PS- Klaus, the reason much tab has no rhythmic notation is that many tab readers don't know how to interpret it, since they haven't dealt with standard notation (yet?). As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".

One of the main reasons I stll play the flute after 2 years is because I learned to read music. Other wise I would have had to spend hours learning a single piece of music by ear which is agonizingly slow and then you wind up hating the song because you had to play countless times and don't want to play it anymore. I quit the banjo and guitar for this very reason only after a short time. So learning to read music for me was a blessing.

[Steve L]

Loads of kids playing 2 months that sound like Tony Rice? I must admit...I'm skeptical.

[JeffD]

Another point is, there's an endless source of standard, so why would anyone want to publish versions of mandolin breaks by various authors? Too much of what I call "mandolin inbreeding" generated by that.

There is truth in that: Our mandolin heros did not learn their great licks from a collection of others' great licks.

Why be almost as good as someone else when you can be the best at playing your own style. Let others read your licks off an archive and try to be almost as good as you.

[ApK]

Quote (woodnbronze24 @ Oct. 04 2007, 22:59)
Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.



============================================

Many tab readers don't understand why tab is inferior,..

Tab is a useful learning tool for being shown HOW to play a tune. #The day I got my mando, I could look at a tabbed tune and play something. # Tab is SUPERIOR to standard at telling a beginner HOW to play something on a given instrument, simply because standard doesn't try to do that. #Tab is also exceptionally easy to learn to understand, which might be a SUPERIOR trait for an already overwhelmed beginner. #I can teach someone the basics of standard notation in about 15 minutes. #I can teach someone the basics of tab in about 1.
I just found the broad, unqualified 'inferior' statement worthy of raised eyebrow.

[AlanN]

Loads of kids playing 2 months that sound like Tony Rice? #I must admit...I'm skeptical.

Come to the Piedmont of North Carolina sometime during festival season... "I'll show you something to make you change your mind" (just have T. Rice in the player, as we speak) #

[Steve L]

Wow!