Compulsive purchase- Flatiron 1N

[fatt-dad]

I say, by all means let's chronicle what Paula has to say on the early pancakes. We can still speculate, make up folk rumors and expand on the truth as it is presented to us (all in the name of civil free speach and American liberty).

Woo Hoo!!

f-d

[telepbrman]

What are the heavyest strings used here on the pancakes? I have my MC2 strung up with J-75's, 11.5-41. I feel it drives more, more tone...dy.

[pickinNgrinnin]

telepbrman-

Were you not the guy who's Sweet Pea top caved in due to stringing it up with J-75's

You have to go light on your strings Bro. These Pancakes like light gauge. Refer to the first page of this thread as I listed the recommended string guages as they appear on a label inside of the soundhole.

[delsbrother]

OK, here goes. I sent Paula Jean a brief email asking her whether the folks at Sound to Earth had seen this thread. Along with it I asked a couple of basic pancake questions about bracing, scales, production numbers, etc. - particularly in comparison to Sound to Earth's own flattop, the Y2K. I also asked if Weber would consider reissuing the pancake. She responded:

Yes, we are aware of the thread running on MandolinCafe regarding the little Cadet model in the Performer Series and/or the #1N in the Signature Series, and the Gibson AN-Custom. Those instruments would be considered proprietary to Gibson. #We came up with our own preferred design in our Y2K and/or Aspen #1 or #2, and would not be in a position to consider re-issuing the former instruments. #My understanding was the little flat that is offered thru the Opry Mall Gibson Store is reminiscent of the original flat tops. #It is always refreshing for us to read the enthusiasm shared about older Flatiron instruments, though.

I can speak only to instruments made by Montana Flatiron luthiers prior to 1997. #All solid woods were used; no laminates; no plywood. #After about 1989/90, all instruments had adjustable truss rods. #All Signatures Series instruments carried a lifetime warranty to the original owner; all Performer Series instruments originally carried a one year warranty. #I am familiar with most models and specifications with little exception. #Numbers built by any builder tend to be proprietary information, and we would have no Gibson data referencing quantities. #I started with Steve Carlson in July 1991. #He had been building since 1979, and his business was purchased by Gibson Guitar Corporation in April/May 1987.

The scale length was probably 13 7/8 or there abouts. #Ours is 14". #The bracing pattern would have been considered lateral. #We're using what we call a lateral/modified X-brace in our Weber flats. #The Cadet model came into the Performer Series about 1987. #You might be able to reference Mandolin Brothers, Ltd historical data, as a 1989 catalog indicates the Performer Series itself came into being in 1987. #The PX 1917 and Cadet were plain with no binding. #The Gibson AN-Custom built by Flatiron was a very high-end, ornate flat top.

Our string choice for our mandolins today is GHS A270's. #I simply do not remember the strings used prior to the Gibson Guitar Corporation purchase; but we did use Gibson strings after the purchase, as they had their own String Division in Elgin, IL. #

Our instruments today showcase the integrity of craftsmanship that has filtered down over the years to our luthiers today. #We've taken the Steve Carlson/Flatiron era and brought it to an even higher level of integrity in craftsmanship/tone/playability/esthetic beauty, etc. under the guidance and direction of Bruce D. Weber. #It is both a pleasure and a privilege working with him and providing thousands of players an exceptional line of acoustic instruments at a very fair price, embracing customizations to create personal dream instruments.

If you desire additional information, or if I can fill in the gaps, please do not hesitate to write me again...

Paula Jean Lewis

(posted with permission)

Of course I then fired off whole bunch of questions that I'd cut and pasted from this thread! She responded she was interested in answering as many as she could, but it might be a while before she had the time to get to all of them.

So there you go.. If there's stuff you want to know, fire away! Hopefully Paula Jean will consider posting directly to this thread.

Darrell

[delsbrother]

Here, I'll start:

Does anyone have pics of a Gibson AN-Custom??



Darrell

[Nathan Sanders]

I do not have pictures of a Gibson AN-Custom but I saw one once at a store. It was pretty cool. Imagine a sunburst pancake with sound hole rosette, and I think it had binding at least on the top, maybe back too.

[fatt-dad]

What are the heavyest strings used here on the pancakes? #I have my MC2 strung up with J-75's, 11.5-41. #I feel it drives more, more tone...dy.

I've quoted this message for one important reason: To ask whether this is why BigJoe sees "problems" with the mortise and tendon neck joint? I mean when the sticker on the inside of the instrument actually gives the gauges and folks put the heaviest string offered on the little things - no wonder there are neck problems. Please consider using the GHS A250s (or some other equivalent).

I also want to thank Darrell for going the extra mile on learning more about the pancake. Now we have some insight on the difference between the performer and the artist series.

On the matter of the Custom Gibson, there was on on Ebxx that was real fine looking - I wanted it. Unfortunatly, it went for a pretty penny (like maybe $800.00).

f-d

[delsbrother]

Really no problem, F-D. As others have pointed out throughout this thread, Paula Jean's an incredible source of first-hand info, and she has always been just an email away.

On a somewhat unrelated note, does anyone know if the pancake 'zouk Thile is playing nowadays is a Flatiron? Or is it a Brunkalla (sp)?

[telepbrman]

Ok, I will back off the heavy strings...yes the pea caved in, yet, I removed the strings, went into the bathroom with the shower on hot, so there was a lot of steam around, and gave it a few tugs to lift the top a bit. All's mello now, lights are the game plan...thanks, dy.

[pickinNgrinnin]

FD - Interesting question regarding the wrong string guage and "problems" with the Mortise and Tenon neck joint. I too wonder if that could be a contributing factor.

Great info by Paula Jean!

There you go dy - you are on the right track now!

[bratsche]

Completely ditto the "light strings on flattops" advice! I had two similar experiences on purchases of mandolas, my Flatiron pancake and my MidMo M-16. #Both were previously owned, and in both cases, the sellers told me they were great instruments, and praised them to the skies. True, but when each arrived, you'd have never known it. #Both were outfitted with the heaviest, awfullest strings you could imagine, and sounded choked and lifeless until I changed them. #Not to mention that the Flatiron's strings were so tense that they'd eaten down through the ebony nut in several places and despite the extremely low action, they still felt like cheese cutters even to my callused fingers. I suppose I am fortunate that there was not yet any neck warping or top cracking on either instrument. I am convinced that if either of these sellers had ever used proper strings on the instruments, they might likely have been so "wowed" by the sound that they wouldn't have sold them... so their loss was my gain!

All that said, despite their similarities in this regard, my Flatiron and MidMo mandolas couldn't possibly be any more different from each other. They have nothing in common other than being flattops. ;-)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if that instrument being played by the guy called "Tiny" a couple pages back is a mandola or a mandolin?#If it is a mandolin, then he really is tiny!#With reference to his size, the instrument looks about the same proportion that my Flatiron mandola looks on me. (Not that I am tiny, but I would be small if I were a guy. ;-) )

bratsche

[delsbrother]

Yes, I think that is a mandola.. I guess that's another question for Paula Jean! Also notice the picture is from the Backporch days.. Does this mean Bratsche will soon be taking up Western Swing?

Darrell

[telepbrman]

Ok, I did finally swap out the strings on the MC2, I did the GHS Medium Light 11/11 16/16 24w/24w 38w/38w and I know this is still heavy compaired to the inside sticker, it is not the J75's. I will be honest, I can't tell the diff on these Med Lights to the heavies, and I like that due to the possible damage on a flattop. If there is a tone difference, it maybe a tad less bass-ish, but all is good...Last item, I bought a t-shirt from that Bar in Cleveland, Flatiron Irish Resturant & Bar, to match up with the Mando, later, dy.

[telepbrman]

I was wondering about a hybrid deal, special order a Weber Aspen with round hole, aka current Pancake via Weber? Any thoughts on this? Later, dy.

[Nathan Sanders]

Here's a stack of pancakes, taken just before I shipped off the f-hole.

[fatt-dad]

What a nice family!

(on the matter of a special order pancake from Weber, ala 1N, I think from an earlier post it won't happen. The design went to Gibson with the Flatiron purchase - what a shame.)

f-d

[Nathan Sanders]

Thanks!

I think it would be neat to order a 1N from Gibson with the coloring, finish, and binding of an A-9. I guess really it would be more of a 2M than a 1N. By the way, did you see the Gibson AN in the Classifieds?

[telepbrman]

f5--What is the long neck Flatiron? Mandola? Thanks, dy.

[fatt-dad]

Thanks!

I think it would be neat to order a 1N from Gibson with the coloring, finish, and binding of an A-9. I guess really it would be more of a 2M than a 1N. By the way, did you see the Gibson AN in the Classifieds?

I bid on one of these last year (ebxx) and wasn't the winner, but loved the look of it. The one in the classifieds looks to be the same instrument (or a brother/sister). Using the currency converter the price of 975 euros (i.e., $1170.00) seems somewhat agressive, but who knows?

f-d

[Nathan Sanders]

Tele,

The long neck Flatiron is the Flatiron bouzouki. It has a great sound. In fact, I bought it from a fellow cafe member.

Yep, fattd, I thought the price was little agressive too for the AN. But, like you say, who knows? I remember seeing one in a guitar store a few years ago. I might have to check it out and see if they still have it.

[telepbrman]

F5--That Flatiron bouzouki is cool, can you use a capo on it to make a fake mandola? Thanks, dy.

[Nathan Sanders]

Tele,

I suppose you could do that. I hadn't thought about it. I currently have it tuned like a mandolin, so I guess you could capo up to the fifth fret and get a mandola tuning.

[Markelberry]

Ok Ive read all of the post on this subject and now I have the fever I located one in near mint condition in hard case an 1982 1N for 750.00 I know there might be a better deal somewhere any thoughts on the price? Mark

[fatt-dad]

Markelberry,

Well, you pay for "mint" condition. I figure that my pre-Gibson 1N would be properly priced at $550 or $600 and it has quite a pick rash (more like a blister) on the front. It also has the original case, but it too is worn. I would think the $750.00 is a little high, but looking and fretting over an ebay find may wear you out and not without some risk.

Another perspective is to look at the price of a comparable modern flat-top mandolin. To go with a Davis Flattop you'd be in the $800 to $900 range and the MidMo would put you in the $600 to $700 range (with a proper hard shell case). The pre-Gibson 1N will have some mojo over either. That said, if you have the patience, you may be able to find a pre-Gibson 2- or 3-series pancake in the $750 range - whether it's "mint" or whether you have the patience to shop is another matter.

The way I would see it is what's the price of shopping, hunting and uncertanty considering that you've seen the "mint" 1N and (presumable) you like (love) it!

good luck.

f-d

[Markelberry]

Ive seen the mandolin not in person the photos are great,as described have not a chance to play it I would have to buy it first. Would you not agree the consistancy of the pre-gibson flattys are quite good? It is being carried by a well established music shop.