Short scale for om / finger difficulty

[clarksavage]

I dearly love my Darnton OM. It has a 22 inch scale. I have done some basic rhythm playing in a couple of tunings and it works very well for me. I am beginning to pick out melodies these days, I recently learned "Whiskey Before Breakfast" (though I haven't tried it ).

My fingers are long enough, but I seem to have troublesome "double joints" where my fingers can "click" into (and out of) place, changing the angle with the rest of my hand by some small amount. I find that when fingering up the fretboard, it becomes hard to use my 3rd finger up at about the 5th fret. My joints move around and it takes a lot of effort to continue. I may be able to train my pinky to do the job, I've been able to do that a little, and all works out. I've also been stretching and just practicing some scales and it does seem to help (better than yesterday!)

Two questions -

1. anyone with a scale length on their OM of, say, 20 inches or less? who makes it, how well does it all work?

2. anyone have similar troubles getting your fingers to do what you want them to and do you have stretching techniques or other tips for me?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Clark

[Steve L]

Are you using mandolin fingering on your octave? I would use 1 finger per fret guitar-like fingering on that instrument. Some people say they can use mando fingering on octaves of that scale length, but I think music's hard enough. If you're not using your pinky on an OM you're working too much.

[mandolooter]

ok my take on this is by ob-zer-vation only...i see kids with lil fingers banging out tunes on a guitar wit a longer scale length...I can't do it but I seen it.

[PhilGE]

Clark,

I've been quite pleased with my Thomas Buchanan Octave Mandola at 500 mm scale length (around 20"). It growls, roars, and otherwise has a big voice. It's got gusto and character, definitely not operatic.

Here's an old sound sample I made a few years ago.

EDIT: corrected the link to the sound sample. Was previously linked to a clip of my Spira mandola.

-Phil

[danb]

Clark, I used to play a 20 3/4" sobell tuned GDAEA bass to treble. That's a nice feeling scale length. The added A on top keeps you from stretching for the high B on the OM

[Martin Jonas]

I have the same experience as Dan: I play GDAEA on a 17" scale instrument (retuned vintage waldzither), and that feels very comfortable with mandolin fingering and the A top course to minimise 7th fret pinky stretches.

Martin

[otterly2k]

I can´t comment on the finger joint issues, but my OM´s are both about 20.5" scale and I like them very much. I found the 22 and up scales to be too long for me to get around melodic playing with the speed I need. I could get it, but because I had to move my hand up and down the neck a lot more, it slowed me down.

Who makes ´them? Well I made one, and Brian Dean made the other. Most custom builders will work with your scale (though not all). TC OM´s are short scale too, I think.

[John Flynn]

FWIW, Michael Kelly's OM has a 19 1/4 scale length.

For finger and wrist problems, I like the stretches on the Musician's Health website. I have wrist issues and they work wonders for me.
http://www.musicianshealth.com/stretches.htm

Mike Compton also taught us some warm ups at a workshop and one that would seem to apply to your situation is:
1. Use your right hand to grab a finger of your left hand in a grip like you would use for pulling a rope.
2. Massage the finger by pulling it out of the tight grip.
3. Repeat 10 times on each finger and the thumb.
4. Finally, grab the whole hand at once and do the same thing.
5. Then switch hands and repeat the whole sequence, left hand grabbing the right.

[jmcgann]

Regardless of scale length, it is important that your left hand fingers don't bunch together and touch each other- get some daylight in there from just above the big knuckles.

Think "duck web". Think "spider".

Many of my students come to me suffering from what they think of as 'small hands'...Watch Andy Statman sometime- it's not about small hands, it's about alignment. Once they get the alignment better, they can't believe how large their hands are

[clarksavage]

Hey, great advice, I am improving already due to the different perspectives I've gotten here (and some private replies!) Thanks all. Steve - yes, I am trying to get as close as I can to my mandolin fingering but have to modify it on occasion, I just don't want to interject my pinky unless I really have to (I may get over that soon though.) Phil - thanks for the link to Buchanan's OM's. Dan, 5 courses may be part of the solution, I'd not thought of that. I've hung with GDAE with the 4 course OM here so far. Otterly, I only wish I lived closer to you, I'd come try yours :-) I really don't know how 2 inches less would affect my playing for sure, though I suspect it would ease things up a whole lot.

jflynnstl - cool site. I've worked those exercises and they seem to help a whole lot. I'm going to work on that. It is promising. And, John, I think you have my problem there. I've been working on the angle my palm has with the fretboard and the angle with which my fingers approach the frets. They're way bent. I am uncomfortable placing my hand so that my fingers have some space and can wander over the frets from above the fretboard (as opposed to the side). BUT, when I can situate my palm parallel to the fretboard, my fingers mostly "above" the frets, at least my fingers can move about a bit. It seems that I just need to stretch my hand a bit and get some practice working with this. I'll keep at it. I have "Whiskey Before Breakfast" (thanks Butch B. for the free video lesson!) - almost up to speed at this point, though I am tired after going through it once.

Clark

[Steve L]

Your pinky is your friend Clark. Think about it this way, you're trying to do something that's important to you and entails a certain level of difficulty and you're deciding not to use 25% of the available resources on your left hand.

[jmcgann]

FWIW I couldn't possibly play an instrument tuned in 5ths without the pinky (actually i couldn't imagine playing guitar without it either, although Django did OK with two fingers, none of us are Django!).

Ted E. has been working on getting me a sixth finger through his underworld connections, but they must be out of season or something, it's taking ages

[Steve L]

John, I've got a 6th finger on back-order as well. #Rumor has it that they are all carbon fiber construction and Zippertone is hoarding all the available supply.

[steve V. johnson]

JohnMcG sez, "Ted E. has been working on getting me a sixth finger through his underworld connections..."

Getting it is one thing. # Using it is another. #A -whole- nother!



And then there are the wiring harness modifications for it, too... *sigh*

stv

[judith]

I still love my Arches OM - the scale is 20 and 3/4" I don't know if he feels the same way, but at the time, Chris said this was as short as he would go, assuming it was tuned GDAE. I personally don't like how fat the strings have to be as it gets shorter. I DO have to leave out some notes sometimes, when playing melody. Luckily, I can sometimes play Otter's Dean. Different sounding than the Arches, but still great in its own way. Besides the scale length, I believe the depth of her Dean is greater. So many variables produce sound! J

[Steve Baker]

<<Two questions -

1. #anyone with a scale length on their OM of, say, 20 inches or less? #who makes it, how well does it all work?>>

Clark

I just had a blinding flash of the obvious. You can easily experiment with shorter scales by capoing up a few frets until you get to the scale length that interests you. If that lays out OK than you know what you'll likely encounter if you buy somehting else. (Although that won't give you an excuse to to feed your MAS!)

My $0.02.

Steve

[steve V. johnson]

Yeah, Steve, using a capo on my Crump zouk has done a lot to kill OM/ZAS for me. #I discovered that I have several different instruments, that all sound a lot like a new Phil Crump instrument, with just this one little clip-on machine! #Woohooo!

Less shopping, more playing!

stv

[sean parker]

i'm with jmcgann. i'm a pinky user (having played guitar first.) and normally go 1 finger per fret - so much so that when i play mandolin, i have to watch myself to prevent overshooting causing sudden modulation and i'm also with jcmgann with alignment or accuracy, not just with fingering but picking too. get in there clean and with good tone and don't worry about speed in the beginning. do everything simply and slow, and work your way up.

i think what's also important is economy of movement. this helps with fingering regardless of scale; keeping the hand relaxed as possible, use only as much pressure as needed, try keeping fingers from flying around & keep 'em low.

my om is 22 inches. i'm used to playing longer scales with guitar but it's still an effort sometimes on om. some days i'm on, some days it's really tough and it feels like it's really long. but pinky is there all the same.

when i was a teen, i had a great guitar teacher who had this trick where he would trill and hammering and pulling off, rapidly alternate between ring and pinky. boggles the mind.

[steve V. johnson]

SeanParkers sez, "...important is economy of movement..." # #

Oh, yeah. #The mantra! # #And...

"...i had a great guitar teacher who had this trick where he would trill and hammering and pulling off, rapidly alternate between ring and pinky."

Gary Richrath ?

stv

[PhilGE]

Having played violincello first, I often play with my pinky. There's many more options available with that "extra" finger! If I sell off my OM and get a mandolincello, I'll definitely be playing with my pinky!

[jc2]

A different grip on your instrument may help. A regular cello has a much longer scale, but it is not harder to play melodies on it. Try putting the peghead up over your shoulder to flip the OM more toward the vertical. The change in left arm angle may give your fingers more freedom and strength.(remember if you do this to keep your elbow out a little more). And definitley try 'cello fingering: it works!

[morgan]

Of course, there's always the option of switching to a 16- or 17-inch scale mandola...

[Rick Banuelos]

This seems as good a time as any to tell everyone that we're now making all of our carved-top OM models with a choice of 22 or 20-inch scales at no additional charge for the short scale.

[sgarrity]

I'd love a shortscale F-style octave. One of these days.....

[steve V. johnson]

Rick, Shaun,

Another great option from Weber/STE, well done!

I'd love to have an F-style at the 22", dreamt of one for a while. So far I can't reach that high.

stv