"f2" with reverse headstock

[f5loar]

Serial numbers and factory order numbers have also been faked over the years. No big deal if you do find something.
Since I doubt this was made to be passed off as a fake F2 I doubt you would find any fake numbers in there. It could be the "The Gibson" was inlay later.

[mrmando]

Exactly. If the builder didn't bother to fake a label, I doubt he/she/it would bother to fake an FON. Absence of an FON is further proof that this item is not from the Gibson factory -- although, as you say, presence of an FON doesn't mean it's not fake.

[Bernie Daniel]

I sent Ms Jennifer this note -- waiting for a reply:

Hi Jennfier,

Just for the record no one I have talked from the Gibson factory knows a Bob Burns -- but maybe he works somewhere else? #Where did you find him?

However if you are convinced that this is a REAL Gibson then why would you sell it on eBay? #

The Mandolin Cafe has 9,000 members and collectively I would wager there is more information there on mandolins than anywhere in the world -- yet oddly, no one has apparently heard of this factory error or seen other memebers of the "batch" with mirror image necks that went out. Wonder why not? #

Most of the other very rare Gibsons that slipped out are out there in collectors shops etc. and folks on the Cafe have seen them.

Therefore if you are right -- your mandolin must be an extemely rare Gibson and probably worth a lot of money to a collector. #Seems like you should be contacting some of the deep pocket instrument collectors eh? #

Bernie -- from the Web.

[mrmando]

We've seen another mirrored headstock or two, I believe, but those instruments were just as phony as this one is. You could put 'em all in a room together, but that wouldn't make 'em a "batch."

[Bernie Daniel]

In the case of this one it has appeared at least twice on eBay. So just like in the song "I am my own grandpa" this one is it's own batch!

[PaulD]

The thing that I find troubling about this seller is that she has not posted anything in the auction stating that there is some doubt as to its authenticity. My experience has been that if I have some information the seller may not have had they either post my e-mail and their response or they add a P.S. to their description. I've done the same on one auction where someone said I had the vintage wrong on an antique. Whether she's well meaning or not, she's guilty of fraud and dishonesty just by omitting all the queries and information she's received from you all.

I'm of the opinion that she got burned and she's willing to burn someone else rather than doing the honest thing and calling it a life lesson.

Paul

[mrmando]

Nah, she just thinks ol' Bob Burns trumps all the advice she's gotten from other quarters. He works at Gibson, so he must know somethin', right? It's a bit like expecting everyone who works for Coca-Cola to be an expert on vintage bottles, but there you go.

[Big Joe]

I cannot speak for now, but when I was at Gibson these kind of questions would come to my desk. I would have quickly informed the consumer of its questionable heritage. There is no one in customer service who could answer that question for her. Understand, these are nice people but not experts on vintage instruments. Especially on bluegrass instruments. They would not answer a question as was implied. If there is a Bob Burns, he certainly is not an expert on mandolins from any era. Secondly, if it were brought to the security department of Gibson they may well attempt to confiscate this instsrument as a fake. They would certainly make an effort to have it removed from circulation. That has been the way they have operated in the past. They are very protective of their logos and any fakes they find.

[mrmando]

Ah, that's the REAL Bluegrass Police!

I'll certainly report anything I hear from customer service.

At least Jennifer is being courteous. I told some guy his A3 had a factory refinish, and he threatened to report me to eBay for harassment.

[PaulD]

Nah, she just thinks ol' Bob Burns trumps all the advice she's gotten from other quarters. He works at Gibson, so he must know somethin', right? It's a bit like expecting everyone who works for Coca-Cola to be an expert on vintage bottles, but there you go.

Still, she's withholding information that may affect someone's purchasing decision on a relatively big ticket item. As far as I'm concerned, an honest seller would state that they have a "so called 'expert'" that claims this is a fake, but that good ol' Bob Burns at Gibson says it's the real thing. At least then the buyer could do some research or maybe escrow the payment until he or she can verify its authenticity.

If you look at her feedback, which is very good (I would consider buying from her), the common negative feedback has to do with misrepresenting items or things being "not as described." Granted, she's only got about 1/2 dozen negatives and pages of positive feedback, so they may be undeserved or she may only be a little bit crooked!

pd

[bradeinhorn]

for the record-she claims to be the lister of all three #ebay listings of the instrument. the first she pulled down after being told it was a fake. she next listed it as a handmade copy and claimed ebay pulled it down for their policy against listing items as a copy of another item. finally, she claims to have done the burns research and relisted it as real.

she is being courteous to justify her blissfull ignorance. the flatiron auctioneer did the same thing. this one is worse because we're dealing with an actual shop owner and this status gives her an added level of credibility. it is scary that she may very do this all the time.

[PaulD]

I think if she did it all the time she'd have worse feedback, but I doubt this one will garner good feedback unless the buyer chooses blissful ignorance too! Actually, I guess we don't know how many users gave good feedback based on the initial deal but were dissatisfied later.

pd

[bradeinhorn]

I think if she did it all the time she'd have worse feedback, but I doubt this one will garner good feedback unless the buyer chooses blissful ignorance too! Actually, I guess we don't know how many users gave good feedback based on the initial deal but were dissatisfied later.

pd

additionally -

feedback is key indicator of the truth in questionable (if you can even call it that) situations like this where identity isn't clear. obviously the seller is going to have significantly more postive feedback than negative - otherwise no one would do business with her. note btw, this seller has at least 2 ebay identities. also, i didn't mean to suggest she did it all the time - it was more a figure of speech.

a wise buyer who has some question about authenticity should read the negative feedback and the fact that most of it deals with misrepresented items should raise a red flag. the worry is the buyer who just takes this at face value which many will unfortunately do.

b

[MikeEdgerton]

The other side of the feedback conundrum is the chance for retaliatory feedback. That keeps a large number of people from saying what they really feel. Don't get me wrong, I think that the eBay feedback system is necessary but it really isn't a great indicator. It is however the only indicator.

[thistle3585]

Maybe its the Frank Wakefield model.

[MandoBen]

or the Jimi Hendrix model

[bradeinhorn]

or the milli vanilli model.

[mrmando]

The plot thickens:

From: Bob Burns
Sent: Aug 28, 2007 9:31 AM
To: mrmando@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: "Gibson" F2 mandolin - real or fake?

Hello Martin,

Thank you for contacting Gibson. The F-2 had a mahogany back from 1902 until 1927. The two point body style was introduced in 1910. Black top was an option from 1908 on. I could not make-out from the pictures if a truss rod was present (1922 was the first year a truss rod was used on this model. I have attached a picture from Gibson's 1920 catalog which shows the F-2 and it's specs. While a pick-guard was part of the spec for this model, it may be possible a special order was placed to have the mandolin built without the pickguard. The person who sent in the pictures and inquiry was told the instrument appears "consistent" with a Gibson F-2 from that period of time. Thanks for your inquiry to Gibson.

Best regards,

Bob Burns

Gibson Customer Service
1-800-4GIBSON
bob.burns@gibson.com

[f5loar]

Bob needs to stick with Les Pauls and amps. If he can't make out from those photos if it had a truss rod or not then he needs glasses too! And no pickguard special order in the teens? Possible but there is evidence of a pickguard being attached to the fingerboard but in the wrong places. And no mention of the reverse headstock either. The plot really does thicken. I think Bob needs to forward this inquiry over to Danny Roberts or Dave Harvey to get a quick refresher coarse in the history of Gibson mandolins.

[laddy jota]

I thought the F-2's had birch backs. What about the reverse head stock on the thing? Allison must have sent Bob a different picture than the one on ebay because there is not the vaguest resemblance to a Gibson F-2. It is a Bizarro World mandolin. Spell the name backwards and maybe it will dissappear into the fifth dimension.

[mrmando]

I asked Bob whether he had contacted anybody at OAI. The photo he sent me is the same one that the seller has put in her eBay ad.

I, too, thought the F2s had birch backs. Mahogany necks, certainly, but birch backs.

[bradeinhorn]

Bob needs to stick with Les Pauls and amps. #If he can't make out from those photos if it had a truss rod or not then he needs glasses too! #And no pickguard special order in the teens? Possible but there is evidence of a pickguard being attached to the fingerboard but in the wrong places. #And no mention of the reverse headstock either. The plot really does thicken. I think Bob needs to forward this inquiry over to Danny Roberts or Dave Harvey to get a quick refresher coarse in the history of Gibson mandolins.

i'm with you. he has not convinced me one bit. those fugly scrolls, obvious incorrect parts, missing binding, etc? i mean cmon. notice he said "consistent" with...pretty vague language for someone trying to authenticate.

[Tighthead]

Strange that Bob Burns makes no mention of the instrument's distinguishing feature, the reversed headstock. I'm kind of surprised he went so far as to say it is consistent with F-2's from that period. That sounds really close to factory-authorized fraud to me.

I suppose there's a very small but non-zero chance that all of the experts in this forum, inclduing Big Joe, are wrong and Bob Burns is right....right?

[Big Joe]

Not on your life, tighthead. Understand the guys in customer service are nice guys, and hard working, but they do not have anything to do with production or history. They especially have nothing to do with Bluegrass instruments. I used to teach a class to them when the new guys were hired on bluegrass instruments, which only covers current production at that time, and they still had not clue. They certainly would not be able to tell an F2 from an F25. I don't mean to disparage Bob Burns, but realize he is a newer guy in an entry level position with limited exposure to the instruments. His desk in is a building miles from the nearest manufacturing facililty. He is in the corporate office. This is one he should have referred to someone at OAI or Repair. Oh well, like my friend Charlie D would often say, "You'll have that!".

[mrmando]

Here's another e-mail from Bob:

Hello Martin,

Thank you for contacting Gibson. I would not be able to look up shipping records from that period. There were often variations in finishes used in those days and there is always a possibility of after-market finish work having been done. I made no comment to the seller regarding batches of instruments, as I have no such information available. Again, there would have been no truss rod in the F-2 prior to 1922. The entire content of the response sent to the owner of the F-2 is attached below ...

"Hello Daniel,

The pictures appear consistent with a Gibson F-2 Mandolin built between 1914-1921. Black was a top finish option during this time frame."

OK, I am beginning to get the picture here. I feel for Bob; he tried to be helpful and now the seller is making it appear that Bob said things he didn't really say.

Per Big Joe's advice, I suggested that Bob contact OAI and Gibson security.