Tc/johnson vs weber octave

[Uath]

My family and I spend every summer in Montana near Bozeman. Bozeman has a super music store called Music Villa. I took my Johnson octave (the same as a TC) in to have new strings put on it. They had three different Weber octaves (a sage 1, and two carved tops) and a zouk. (Webers are made in Montana). To make a long story short, I thought my Johnson sounded better than any of them, hands down. Way, way, better! The Johnson/TC is $500, the Webers start at $1500? (I didn't look at the sage price) with the carved-tops going higher. Money irreguardless, In my opinion, the Johnson was the better instrument and that includes the quality of the materials.
The Johnson sounded so much fuller and richer, I just couldn't believe it. Also, so many people have written about the benefits of the long scale. I totally disagree. Bar chords are a nightmare with the long scale and that lightning fast finger flutter that is possible on the short scale.
I think the current TC/Johnson/Morgan Martin octaves will be reguarded as collector's pieces in the future. They are superior instruments at any price. Have both a long-scale Weber and a short-scale TC/Johnson laying around, and I'll bet you you'll play the Johnson and let the Weber alone. New buyers, don't be taken in by the internet wags with all their talk of "more responsive instruments." What twaddle! Those high priced octaves are no better than the Chinese Johnsons. In many cases, the Johnsons are better.

[allenhopkins]

In my opinion, the Johnson was the better instrument and that includes the quality of the materials.
They are superior instruments at any price. Don't be taken in by the internet wags with all their talk of "more responsive instruments." What twaddle! Those high priced octaves are no better than the Chinese Johnsons. In many cases, the Johnsons are better.

Glad you like your Johnson (no double entendre intended), but sound quality is a subjective judgment, and I wouldn't be surprised if others found the carved-top OM's more to their liking.

One reason I hesitate to generalize across whole genres and manufacturers of instruments, is the substantial differences that may occur between two individual mandolins from the same maker, even when made at or near the same time. Each piece of wood is different, which is why I always recommend that prospective purchasers play every instrument they can.

On the other hand, as my former instrument "pusher," the late Eldon Stutzman, used to say, "If you can't hear the difference, buy the cheaper one." Good advice from a good guy.

[clarksavage]

Having made many of the same comparisons, I don't agree on the sweeping conclusions, but I understand preferences that seem to go against the common wisdom... I sometimes prefer my cheapest mandolin to my 1926 A4. The little Martin backpacker, for instance, gives me a sweet, light, bright sound... something the historic and much desired Gibson will just not provide. If your eyes and ears prefer the less expensive alternative all the time, so much the better for you!

For amazing breadth of tone in an OM, I'll stick to my Eric Darnton. But if I shared your sense of things, I could have bought 4 TC's and assorted supplies for the price :-)

Good for you!

Clark

[groveland]

You make a good point - It's best to weigh the merits of the instrument and ignore the names. And it's great to be enthusiastic about an instrument!

Perhaps there is a case of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" here, but it is so subjective that I would hesitate to make any judgements. Generalizations like "Bar chords are a nightmare with the long scale and that lightning fast finger flutter that is possible on the short scale." Hmmm. Not my experience at all. And the longer scale TC does get a bigger sound better for me than shorter scales.

This is an especially sensitive subject when people's jobs are on the line, particularly when there's so much subjectivity involved. I like to post when a product is outstanding, and I like to simply ignore the rest, letting the market weed out the overpriced and underperforming.

[neangler]

I had a Johnsdon reso mando, and have seen some of their other instruments in the store.

I've noticed that a lot of them aren't quite "finished." Such as the frets aren't properly dressed and such. (Hey, you can only do so much and keep the price down, right?) My reso mandolin had a lot of vibrations coming out of it, and all of the sccrews on the cover plate were loose. It came that way. Not a huge issue; two minutes with a screw driver fixed the problem.

Aside from tone, how is the fit and finish of your Johnson?

[steve V. johnson]

Groveland sez, quoting Uath, "Generalizations like "Bar chords are a nightmare with the long scale and that lightning fast finger flutter that is possible on the short scale." Hmmm. Not my experience at all. "

I agree with Groveland on that, very much. I don't play barre chords, tho, I just like open strings much more.

I, too, enjoy when a player is happy with their instrument.

stv

[PseudoCelt]

Also, so many people have written about the benefits of the long scale. I totally disagree. Bar chords are a nightmare with the long scale and that lightning fast finger flutter that is possible on the short scale.

It depends on what you want from the instrument. If you want to think of an OM as a big mandolin and play it that way, then you are probably better off with a short scale. If you think of it as a related, but different instrument, and play it accordingly, then a long scale isn't as much of a problem.

There are pros and cons of both long and short scales, and you just have to decide for yourself what you prefer.

It's good that you have an instrument you like. The one TC OM I have played stands out in my memory as a good instrument, considerably better than its price might have suggested. Wouldn't swap my Fylde for it, though.

Patrick

[Uath]

neangler, sorry so long in responding. The fit and finish on my Johnson are fine. I think one has to realize the brand names now are really just marketing labels. I did some research before I bought my octave. The Johnson, Trinity College, Morgan Martin, and (I believe) Fender. Are all made in the same factory. The only difference is the inlay on the pegboard. The factory locations have changed drastically in the last few years, going from Japan, to Korea, to China. From what I've read, quality has remained fairly constant, with top markes usually going to the Japanese instruments.
Knowing this, I just looked on the internet for all three makes of octave (short scale). I picked the cheapest one offered. Also, the TC has a cross inlay. No offence, but that's rather an extreme statement to make, in this day of the Conservative Christian political movement. That alone moved me toward the Johnson.
I can't help but feel there's a bias toward long scale instruments on this board. New buyers, look at both before buying. IMHO the short scale has many advantages.

[steve V. johnson]

Uath sez, "The Johnson, Trinity College, Morgan Martin, and (I believe) Fender. Are all made in the same factory."

Just fyi, that's "Morgan Monroe." # And their distribution HQ is here in Indiana.

There is a pretty big difference in how each company does its quality control after the instruments are made and shipped. #I say this from experience, both with QC folks from the brands, and from having helped a fair number of folks pick out their first instruments, shopping hard among these brands. # The different methods of QC and marketing have, in my experience, resulted in widely varying quality in some of these brands. #Some of the stateside QC folks are really no fun at all to try to talk with. #They have often been kind of ... harried ...

I've owned several Johnson instruments, including OMs and bouzoukis, and while I enjoyed them and so did the folks I sold them to, I wouldn't rate their fit'n'finish very highly. #Suffice it to say, I sold them and moved on, and as I grew familiar with OMs/zouks and how to play them, I found other, more sophisticated instruments to be more satisfying.

For what it's worth... if there's an aspect of one of these manufactured instruments that isn't quite right, you're on your own, with the help of any local luthier/repair person you can work with. #

With hand-made instruments (such as Weber, since you picked that company out), you can call up the shop and actually work thru your situation with someone who actually had their hands in/on your instrument, and not only for repairs, but for custom modifications. # For some, that's of great value.
I don't have any Weber instruments, but that's been very valuable to me when I've had the chance to talk with/work with custom/indie luthiers. #

I've modified a number of Asian-manufactured instruments, with and without the help of skilled luthiers/repair techs, and even with a great tech, it wasn't as much fun as working with the people who actually built the things.

I still feel that Trinity College are the 'pick of the litter' among these, and the more Asian-made instruments I see, the more that seems true. When they're appropriate to the player who's shopping for an OM, I recommend the TC over the others.

And, "I can't help but feel there's a bias toward long scale instruments on this board. "

I had to laugh... I play a long, custom, Ameican-made zouk, and it's long been my feeling that there are more folks here who, for various reasons (small hands, coming from playing mandolin, more interested in melody than chording, etc., etc...), have, like or want short one, OMs of 23" or less. #LOL!! #

We all see the world a bit differently... #But, I agree with you in that I don't like to use my instruments (clothes, bumper stickers, etc.) to advertise any particular brand of spiritual life... #Other than what someone might experience when I play 'em. #

stv

[Steve L]

I can't find it in the archives, but there was a recent thread that illustrated that there's actually more Christian symbolism in the Weber logo than the Celtic cross on the Trinity. I wouldn't choose to put a cross on my instrument for a multiplicity of reasons, but it wouldn't stop me from buying one I liked either.

[steve V. johnson]

Yeah, I don't know where that is either, but it was when someone noticed that one of the Weber headstock designs was a fish and heart and wondered if it was a Christian reference. # I wrote to STE/Weber and Mary Weber said that, yes, it was, but that it could also be interpreted (because there are lots of folks associated with Weber who love to fish) as 'Fish Love Worms' for secular folks.

Christian symbolism and good humor. #Hooray and well done, there.

They do make loads of other designs for their instruments' headstocks, and I understand that they'd do custom inlays as well.

stv

[Uath]

Not to beat a dead horse, but look at the materials used in the TC/Johnson's (and Goldtone, by the way): Spruce top, maple back and sides, mahogony neck with rosewood, truss rod, sealed tuners, it even comes with natural bone and ebony nut and bridge. It was said that the fit and finish of the Johnsons might be spotty, but all I can say is mine was very fine. I had a nationally known luthier check out the set-up, do a little filing on the bridge, and put a strap button on the neck. He said the set-up was very well done and he couldn't improve on it.
I ordered mine on-line from a music store. They never saw it, just had it shipped directly from the distribution center, still in the box. So I assume the set-up was done in the original factory.
"Factory" is a weird world word anyway. Are these instruments made by a machine, or are they hand made by people who just happen to work in a factory. I'll bet Americans would be surprised at what goes on. Take a company like Washburn. Say we're talking about Washburn guitars. I'll bet that they might sell several different kinds of guitars that weren't even made in the same country as the others. For instance, their expensive model might be turned out by a factory in Korea, while their inexpensive model might be made in Mexico. None of them are made particularly specific. What I think goes on, is that Washburn might contract with a factory in Pakistan to produce 1500 model A-12 guitars. The next year, they might contract with a factory in the Dominican Republic to produce the same model. Would executives from Washburn be active in buying the wood, the glue? I think not. (I'm just using the name Washburn as an example).
My johnson octave came with a fleur de lais on the pegboard. I've never seen that on any Johnson info page. I doubt Johnson even knows that a run of octaves come with a different peg board inlay.
In a long winded way, what I'm trying to say is that with a brand name anything you buy in America, you have no idea where it was made or who made it. With a custom instrument, you can actually talk to the guy that made it. That's a great thing. Is it worth an extra thousand dollars? Is the instrument better?

[otterly2k]

Hey, there's a lot of variability from instrument to instrument, and I think this is even more true of factory made instruments. From the same batch you can get a gem or a dud or something in between. Seems, Uath, that you got a gem and good for you. Given how many people have tried and commented on these mass produced instruments, and big warehouse dealers, and buying sight-unseen here on the Cafe, it would seem that your experience is the exception, not the rule.

And when I say factory - yes, that includes people and even people with skills. But mass produced instruments are made to save time and cost, and each skilled person is focused on only one part of the production and not the integration of the whole. That is the advantage of working with / buying from a luthier.

Is it worth an extra thousand dollars? To some yes, to some no. Is the instrument better? Depends what you mean by that... but I'd venture... usually, yes.

[steve V. johnson]

"With a custom instrument, you can actually talk to the guy that made it. That's a great thing. Is it worth an extra thousand dollars? Is the instrument better?"

Yes. Yes. By far.

But that includes that I get to use -my- understanding of what I want the thing to do, how I want it to sound and feel, and look, too, tho I care less about that than the other two.

stv

[catmandu2]

FWIW: This evening I played a new Weber F-style mandola. I was suprised how poorly it compared with my MIK TC. I would describe it as "stiff" playing, for some reason--even though it was in the shop of a very reputable dealer, and it didn't sound like it had anything particularly special going for it.