Mandolino (5 course) available

[RSW]

An interesting instrument maker has contacted me and sent one of his mandolinos (true 5 course mandolino) for comments. Well, it turns out that this instrument is also for sale and before I even asked the price I was already quite impressed by his work. The maker's name is A. Hopkins and the mandolino costs in the $1250 range with a spectacular rossette (multi-layer parchment). The instrument is well setup and very well made. If anyone is interested, please contact me directly. This instrument is ideal for the greater part of the baroque repertoire.

Photo 1
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Although this might be interrpeted as an announcement (classified style), I want to underscore that I have no interest (financial connection) other than letting everyone know that this instrument is available.

[Eugene]

Very interesting. I think the instrument is graceful and very aesthetic. Did the maker tell you if he patterned this instrument after an extant piece, or simply on a general concept of the form. It's odd to see a full 12 frets clear of the soundbox on such things. Not even the diminutive Strad has a full 12 frets clear.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Richard,

Indeed the workmanschip looks fine. Seen the costs of this example ordering a mandolino from this maker, who I believe lives and works in Budapest, could be a nice alternative.

By the way, do you know why he and for instance Daniel copy out of all the excisting 5 and 6 course mandolinos precisely this long necked and tiny bodied Mandolino model, of which only one original example excists?


Best,

Alex

[RSW]

Not sure what you're talking about Alex, I've seen a number of small bodied mandolini, almost all 5 course. Not surprising is that most of my baroque music for mandolino never descends below the low B. It's actually very comfortable to play and has a healthy and pleasing sound. This instrument is considerably smaller (scale and body size) than my Larson copy of the Lambert mandolino (6 course). It is a big bigger than than the Stradivari mandolino (body size) and about the same in scale (on the short side). I'll see if I can dig up some photos but I'm sure you must have some as well. I didn't speak at any length with the maker because I was in a hurry at the time and I haven't spoken with him since I was sent the instrument. Incidently, he's not in Bulgaria, I believe he's in Mallorca or some place off the Spanish coast.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Richard,


Well, I am troubled by the fact that the wrong Mandolinos (with ´wrong´ I mean: the isolated cases) are copied.

I am sure Mr. Hopkins (and others) can make good and more historical justified examples, especially when so many of them are around.

Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

So is this a loose copy of the Stradivari? Is the Stradivari the one that Alex terms an "isolated case." Tune in next week... #

I still love the case and the 18th century wallpaper. Is the case original to the instrument. BTW, Richard, is the Stradivari actually playable? Did you play it on your visit?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Jim,

A ´loose´ copy, and that particular Stadivari Mandolino - nice as it is - is an ´isolated case´ in the Mandolino brance of the Mandolin family.

I found quite a number of this kind of cases, so the design was quite known at the time. The Mandolinos always fitted precisely.


Best,

Alex

[Eugene]

In the article addressing the Cutler-Challen Strad in the Shrine to Music Museum's newsletter, I remember them stating the case to be original. I don't think the instrument posted by Richard is an intent to reproduce the Cutler-Challen Strad. I suspect it would probably be described by the luthier as "own design" (a phrase often used to describe modern-built vihuelas until the appearance of the "Chambure" vihuela)...Although Dan Larson's mandolino after Lambert isn't really proportioned any more similarly to the V&A Lambert that inspired it than this piece appears to be to the Cutler-Challen Strad.

[RSW]

Dan certainly did a loose reproduction of a mandolino type but I can't agree with Alex on this one because the Strad (Cutler-Challen), though maybe not so common in precisely this form, sounds and plays wonderfully (yes, I did try this instrument but prior to the last repair or regluing of bridge). There has always been such variety of forms and individual twists in the making of mandolins, if the luthier today wants to change something, well.. go ahead, maybe it'll be better, maybe worse or maybe just different. I believe this was in the spirit of the luthier's of the past excepting those in the forgery business.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

Of course, the long necked tiny bodied original Stradivari Mandolino (and it´s today copies) sounds and plays great. I will not question that.

All I am saying is that - if copies are made - it would be best if it is done after the (Italian) instruments in the mainstream of the Mandolino field. Most of them have seven to nine frets tied (if they are made of gut) around the neck. To enlarge the tone range later examples have extra wooden (bone or ivory) frets glued to the sound table.

It is an advice also given by James Tyler in 1989 at the end of part I in the book ´THE EARLY MANDOLIN´, page 46 and 47, where he mentions (quote): "only a few examples" as representative 17th century#examples to copy those Mandolinos by Matteo Sellas and Giuseppe Fontanelli and those that could be choosen to copy of the 18th century made by Benedetto Sanbretto, Giovanni Smorsone (see attached stamp), Domenico Brambilla and Fedele Barnia. #

Incidently, James Tyler was - already in 1981 and long before the publication of his and Sparks´ book ´THE EARLY MANDOLIN´ - through his article in Early Music, the first to bring the long necked tiny bodied Cutler-Challen Stradivari Mandolino under the attention of a wider public.


Best,

Alex

[RSW]

The instrument pictured in the postage stamp, an example of what Alex would prefer have the attention of luthiers and players alike, looks interesting but I really don't like the nut jutting out and creating a sharp edge to scrap the side of the knuckle. If the instrument was big enough to discourage my hand position (highly prejudiced by mandolins tuned in 5ths), than it might not be an issue (I would be forced to adopt the guitar handset). With me, this neck would be painful and unsuccessful unless I devoted most of my time to it. I prefer the more narrow neck of mandolinos in general. So, for historical accuracy, this might indeed limit me to the less common approach in the Strad mandolino and a few others that I have seen. I'll have photos after my next visit to the reserve room in the museum. What are Tyler's arguments for the 'superiority' of this design? I would assume that in the past as in the present, the best instruments were in a minority, the majority were just ordinary.

[etbarbaric]

Good morning all. I started to chime in here a couple times and couldn't put the right words together. First, I think its great that another luthier (young luthier?) is building a mandolino... especially at a reasonable/affordable price. We should all encourage his efforts and I hope that someone buys his fine-looking instrument.

Eugene's point about it being perhaps his "own model" is, I think, also correct... the difference between mandolinos and vihuelas being... (and I think this is one of Alex' points) that there are lots of surviving mandolinos on which to base a copy. Some of us would like to see more of those models available. At the same time, an affordable "student-model" mandolino would not be a bad thing to have in the marketplace either. The trick is that a good student instrument ideally should be representative of most of the instruments out there.

I happen to own both a Larson/Lambert mandolino and a close copy of the Cuttler-Challen Strad so perhaps I'm an expert! :-) My own Strad-copy (by Christopher Challen, the previous owner of the original) was my first mandolino... and though I love it dearly, it certainly represents a statistical outlier in the overall inventory of surviving mandolinos (and a steep learning curve). Because it is one of Strad's precious surviving instruments (and because Christopher Challen founded the West Dean School of Luthiery), it has been copied perhaps more than any other mandolino.

Compared to the surviving literature for the instrument, the Strad is relatively early (1680) and its size makes it a real challenge to hold and play (with good tone) for most. The Strad is not something I'd recommend as a general-purpose mandolino, or a good starter instrument. Unfortunately, too many people tried to start with this model of mandolino a few years back... and quickly gave up... either abandoning the mandolino all together, or opting for unrealistic modern embellishments on the model and technique.

The important thing for me is getting at the original playing techniques for the music written for the instrument. To do this well, short of playing original instruments, I need the most accurate representation of what a mandolino was in the 18th century. Again, there are plenty of examples to choose from as patterns in collections and museums around the world. The Strad is a worthy instrument to copy too and it deserves our understanding... we just need to encourage more variety in the mandolinos that are available.

Remember too that luthiers are just putting food on the table like everyone else (they're some of the bravest people I know... employing a 16th-century craft in our crazy 21st-century world). The time and work involved with building a mold for a new model of lute or mandolino means that luthiers tend to build what they've built before. At the same time, luthiers will ultimately make what people want to buy. Someone should buy Mr. Hopkins' mandolino... someone else should commision a close copy of a surviving instrument that peaks their fancy. In the luthier studying that original instrument, and in the buyer playing the copy, we will all get closer to the truth about the mandolino.

Best,

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Richard,

I don´t know the exact reasons James Tyler had, but they are likely the same as mine: the Mandolinos mentioned by Tyler (of course not only the one pictured on the stamp) represent best the model design of the fast majority of 5 and 6 course examples.

Of course there are little differences in the overall design among them. But these do not stretch the mainstream of the Mandolino type.


As for the sharp edge of the nut seen at the front side of this Roman Mandolino model, I say that this is such a little difference. And also that it is a bit exaggerated by the dark background of the photo.

I know from the Smorsones that I have seen and handled that at the backside the neck-headstock fitting of a feels quite smooth and convinient.

But if one still is disturbed by it, I would simply recommend a copy of a Milanese model by Domenico Brambilla, Francesco Plesbler or one made by Ambrogio Maraffi. The nuts on these instrument are less outspoken and - seen at the back - the headstock looks like to follow the side lines of the neck
(see for instance the photos in my book of the Maraffi Mandolino at page 13: front side and at page 106: back side). Or the images of the copies of it if these are still somewhere floating around at the message board here.


Best,

Alex

[Arto]

Does somebody know if the large "Baroque mandolins" played by German artists like Gertrud Tröster and Caterina Lichtenberg are copies of some uncommonly large originals, or are they modern luthiers´ "own models"?

thanks, Arto

[RSW]

Eric,

Hello,

I actually find this instrument wonderful to play (comfortable) and the sound more than just adequate. I wouldn't call it a student model (maybe the original Strad is), did you check out the rosette? What about this instrument:

http://servsim.cite-musique.fr/museede....NT23824

Looks like a long neck too.

Richard

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Arto,


These are "own models"...


Greetings,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Mr. Hopkins' work was "student-quality". #I was merely observing that his price seems quite reasonable. #The dearth of affordable (affordable by students) instruments is a canonical discussion in lute circles and a great impediment to more people playing the instruments. #To me a student-quality instrument *must* play well and easily, though it might lack the detail, and workmandhip of say, a fully-replicated and ornamented Smorsone. It would be great to see affordable mandolinos available from someone... even with some historical compromises (IMHO).

And no... I don't think the original Strad was of lower quality either, far from it. #I've been visiting with Dan Larson about his close copies of this instrument and its been interesting to hear how hard it is to replicate this little jewel successfully. #The top is probably less than 1mm thick... *and* it has an ebony half-binding and perfling inlayed into it (each of which must, of necessity, be ~.5mm deep). Dan said that it was more like surgery than luthiery. #He said he went through no less than 12 tops before finding properties he liked. #I had my own Strad-copy re-topped by Larry Brown (which changed everything for the better). #Larry called it "the hairy edge of luthiery" and every time I speak with him he asks if it has imploded yet. #There is good reason that old Antonio is respected the way he is... his workmanship was just phenomenal...

As for the link you provided (E.0702), I don't find this too similar to Mr. Hopkins instrument. #This 5-course instrument still has the "traditional" 10 frets to the neck and the proportional tapered body. #I think even Alex would approve :-). #And the ebony/ivory back is to die for eh?

Arto, as for the modern German "baroque mandolin" school, this is what I was refering to in my earlier post when I said "unrealistic modern embellishments". #The examples of these instruments that I have seen are quite heavily-built and though there may have been a few larger mandolinos around toward the end of the 18th century... these seem to take the concept to a new extreme. #They are certainly out of the mandolino mainstream that Alex mentions. #Also, the stylized plectrum technique that is applied to these instruments today, though usually quite accomplished and well performed, is also not based in any historical record that I am aware of (excepting, perhaps Hoffmann... and even then, as Alex has demonstrated, a different plectrum is probably implied).

Best,

Eric

[RSW]

The mandolino after Strad that Dan made did indeed suffer the same fate of the original (already 2) with the bridge pulling off. This model is indeed at the limit but somehow I think that's what makes great instruments. The instrument in the link I posted has nothing to do with Hopkins, Strad or Larson mandolinos other than that the body of the instrument is more narrow and refined than the wider body instruments that Alex and many prefer. Where the frets lay doesn't really matter that much to me. The scale on the Hopkins is 322mm which is less than that of the Larson (Lambert) and many others. I believe the Strad is still shorter in scale. My point was that the size doesn't matter too much about the volume of sound coming out of the box. It is a bit more bright or chirpy than a fat bodied late 18th century instrumetn. The only thing I don't like about the Hopkins but which could easily be corrected is that he strung the top course with a single string. The bridge needs the 2nd hole drilled to make the entire instrument double strung. I believe the price is low because the luthier doesn't have access to a market living on an island cutoff from early music. I have the instrument until end of next week than I have to bring it back to the shop selling it on consignment. I'm tempted but, unfortunately, have to pay for a Cremonese mandolin shortly.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

Ah yes... "size doesn't matter"... the mantra of the mandolino player. :-) (When I bought my archlute, my wife said "now... that's more like it!") Richard, I agree completely that these tiny boxes can put out alot of sound when they are made (and played) correctly.... bigger is not necessarily better. Also, I don't think Alex is advocating wide mandolinos necessarily, as his own choice of the Maraffi model demonstrates.

Just for fun, here are some numbers from handy instruments (all reproductions, so they may vary from the originals to some degree):

5c 1680 Cutler-Challen Strad mandolino (Chris Challen):
- Overall length: 51cm
- Body lenth: ~20.5mm
- Body width: 11.2cm
- Vibrating string lentgh: 31.5cm

5c Anonymous 1730s mandolino (Ivo Magherini):
- Overall length: 54.5cm
- Body length: ~25cm
- Body width: 13.8cm
- Vibrating string length: 33cm

6c 1752 Lambert copy (Dan Larson):
- Overall length: 60cm
- Body length: ~25.5cm
- Body width: 17.7mm
- Vibrating string length: 34.4cm

The difference between each of these instruments in depth of body is almost precisely 2cm. These are truly small, medium, and large representations. For most things my preference is for the middle instrument by Ivo Magherini though the others get played as well, depending on the music.

Anyway, I have a solution... we all move to Mallorca and start an early music scene. Half-days making music... the other half on the beach? Evenings with good wine, mandolinos, and a gentle breeze... Good idea?

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Eric,

Yes, for fun here the measurements of the original 1680 Cutler-Challen Stradivari mandolino now kept at the National Music Museum/The University of South Dakota:

- Overall length: 498mm
- Headstock length: 143mm
- Body length: 197mm
- Neck length: 158mm
- Body width: 111mm

- Vibrating string lentgh: 316mm

The width of the fingerboard at the nut is 41mm and at the point where the body starts 47mm, while the thickness of the rather round neck at the very same places is measured resp. 16.5mm and 20.5mm.

It will take a while - I have to look for them - but if you care for the measurements of the 1752 Jean Nicolas Lambert Mandolino, just say so.


Best,

Alex

PS. Mallorca... sounds great!

[margora]

If one goes to www.worldguitarist.com, clicks on "Instruments", and scrolls down the page a while, one will find Mr. Hopkins' website. He makes both student and professional models. His 2003 price for a student mandolino is 1000 euros; the price for a professional model is 1600 euros. I believe the case is extra. Interestingly, the model offered on the website is not a Strad copy (it is a six course, later vintage I think, but someone more expert here should take a look and confirm). My guess is that his 2004 prices are higher.

[RSW]

2004 prices are somewhat higher, comes to about $1278 for the basic model. The one I have pictured is somewhat fancier (incredible rosette) but less than the one with lots of inlay. All in all, a great instrument for this price or even compared to the highest priced contemporary replicas.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Margora,

Thanks very much for the link to Mr. Alexander Hopkins´ website. It is nice to know that he is also making a 5 or 6 course Mandolino model after Giuseppe Molinari (Venice, 1757).


Now that I have seen the pictures with on some of them Mr. Hopkins himself, I remember that I met him two or three years back at the "Musicora” music fair in Paris. At that time he living in Budapest and very much orientating himself on ´the market´, where it concernes making copies of old plucked instruments.

From what he told me then, I believe that he can make whatever the customer wants him to make.
And indeed, the prices of his instruments are to say the least quite modest.


So it is a good thing that Richard brought him under the attention of us here.


Best,

Alex


PS. #For those who would like to visit Mr. Alexander Hopkins´website, click on this sentence for a direct link and see how and what instruments he makes. Especially the "Instruments in construction" pages are interesting.

[Eugene]

Here is a handful of random musings after returning to this topic rather late. #I have to say that the profile and proportions of Smorsone's work meets my own expectation of the mandolino type specimen better than any other. #I also like Brambilla's slightly stouter soundboxes, but he seems to have been much less prolific. #Not all Smorsone pieces have such an incongruous-looking, narrow pegbox as the stamp pictured above; I do favor the looks of those with the pegbox width more closely approximating the nut width.

What I have on the 1752 Lambert at the V&A is from Baines (1966):
Total length: 56 cm
"Belly:" 22.5 cm
String length: 31 cm

I have often wondered why people who feel a slightly broader soundbox would be more comfortable don't pursue reproductions of Presbler's abundant work of the later 18th c. #This would offer the precedent of extant instruments without either having to monkey with original designs or make up an idealized instrument that features only a baroque visual aesthetic.

[Eugene]

For reference, here's a 1736 Smorsone in Berlin. #Note the less jagged-looking pegbox joint than that on the stamp above (a mighty cool stamp, by the way):