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Thread: Fan interference?

  1. #1
    Paul Wheeler
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    This is bizarre: last night I was playing at a friend's house, and as soon as we started I had this awful warble on my strings, especially at the treble end. The usual trouble-shooting logic pointed to a problem at the bridge, perhaps associated with recent heat and humidity . . . but I couldn't wiggle the bridge any way to make an improvement. Someone suggested it was the overhead fan as the problem -- I resisted the idea since nobody else seemed to have any trouble -- but when the fan was turned off, the problem went away.

    Can anyone explain what was going on, and why it would have affected only my instrument? (The others were two guitars and a fiddle.) Thanks for any insight, this really has me baffled. -- Paul
    He joyously felt himself idling, an unreflective mood in which water was water, sky was sky, breeze was breeze. He knew it couldn't last. -- Thomas McGuane, "Nothing but Blue Skies"

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    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
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    I've noticed that before on the high strings. No idea what it is, but it seems like stroboscopic echoes from the fan blades that sound bizzare- I noticed that a slight shift of position fixed it. Having someone talk from behind a fan produces a similar effect, it's partically cut out.
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    Registered User tkdboyd's Avatar
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    I have experienced the fan problem before; overhead and box fan. Couldn't figure out what was wrong. I would play elsewhere and no issues so I assumed the fan was the culprit! I am sure there is a physics fanatic on the board that could break down the numbers...
    I have an engineering degree but I left it at College!

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    Remember sound is vibration of the air. Anything that vibrates like a refridgerator or buzzing florescent light fixture, or sets up a standing wave in the air like a ceiling fan can affect sound, muffle, change, even amplify it, under the right conditions!

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    My mando mentor, Curtis Buckhannon, turned me on to that effect. I have, on occasion, forgotten it and played in a room with a ceiling fan going and always #notice something sounds strange right away. It is essentially the same effect as a Leslie speaker on a Hammond organ. A example is the organ used on Procol Harum's "A Whiter Shade of Pale." The fan becomes a rotating sound deflector, like that built into a Leslie. The circular motion causes the Doppler effect, creating a distinctive kind of vibrato. That is a great effect for an organ, but not for paired string instruments. If you have ever played an electric mando into a guitar amp with the vibrato effect on, you get a similar bad effect.

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    My band always practices with the fan OFF for this exact reason, no matter how hot it is.
    Howard

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    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
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    ...and remember not to touch the baseball while it's still in the field of play!
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    You beat me to it. We call this "The Leslie Effect" as well. A venue we play in has warmup rooms that have over-head fans. When someone actually turns the fan on we deal with that Leslie Speaker Sound.

    For those not familiar with Leslies you can read about them here.

    And yet another link is here.



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    M@ñdº|¡ñ - M@ñdºce||º Keith Erickson's Avatar
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    I was playing a lulliby for my son on the Mandolin one evening and the exact same thing happened to me.

    I took the mandolin downstairs and was about to trouble shoot.

    Down in the den, I found that the problem just disappeared. Went back up stair and....gosh darn it.... it started up again.

    After the 3rd trip down to the den, it hit me like a ton of bricks that the silly ceiling fan was on

    Oh well, we live and learn

    I'm just glad that I was not the only one this has happened to.
    Keith Erickson
    Benevolent Organizer of The Mandocello Enthusiast

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    Registered User Givson's Avatar
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    This really kills the high E string on a guitar. I think that it is like the Doppler effect.
    When 'good enough' is more than adequate.

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    Registered User bradeinhorn's Avatar
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    want to see something really wierd? put a fan by your computer monitor.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Fans don't always interefere but some do. I have a fan sitting on top of two monitors (of the 6 at my desk) that doesn'r cause any interference. I've seen flourescent lights and cell phones cause problems with monitors as well.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  13. #13
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    scratch paper acoustics suggests
    Reflecting sound off ceiling fan blades in motion would be
    on again and off again, sometimes the flat blade is in a good reflecting position, then its not.
    frequency of note, distance and RPM of fan the variables.


    then the half rotating towards , versus the side rotating away, anyone wondering what to write a dissertation about , there ya go..





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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (mandroid @ June 20 2007, 12:57)
    scratch paper acoustics suggests
    Reflecting sound off ceiling fan blades in motion would be
    on again and off again, sometimes the flat blade is in a good reflecting position, then its not.
    frequency of note, distance and RPM of fan the variables.
    Take into account the void between the blades. That becomes the other side of the equation. The blade angles on a ceiling fan should remain fairly constant as should the distance between the fan blades and the next reflecting surface (in the case of a ceiling fan, the ceiling). An oscillating table fan would probably really make for some crazy results.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    Mandol'Aisne Daniel Nestlerode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (mandopete @ June 20 2007, 07:26)
    ...and remember not to touch the baseball while it's still in the field of play!
    Yeah, or you'll get ejected frpm most ballparks!

    [A fair ball does not have to be in the field of play. If it struck the ground in fair territory at or before reaching first or third, it's a fair ball no matter where else it goes.]



    Daniel

    PS: I have three ceiling fans in my house. The frequency of the note and the speed of the fan have a lot to do with whether the oscilations I get from playing beneath them will bother me. Most of the time I ignore them and stay cool. I hate to get hot more than I hate a little leslie effect.

  16. #16
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    It's a real phenomenon; I've spent many the hour with sweat dripping off the end of my nose because the only thing worse than the ceiling fan off is the "phasing" strings...
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  17. #17
    Paul Wheeler
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    Thanks to all. What a relief -- proof of my insanity will have to come from some other evidence!

    Appreciate those who took "fan" both ways, this is such a great forum! -- Paul
    He joyously felt himself idling, an unreflective mood in which water was water, sky was sky, breeze was breeze. He knew it couldn't last. -- Thomas McGuane, "Nothing but Blue Skies"

  18. #18
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    This is the first time I've clicked on this thread. I was sure it was about playing for an over-appreciative audience that wouldn't shut up and listen, threw things on the stage, or otherwise interfered with your music.

    But anyhow, yes, I've had the ceiling fan experience. First time was many years ago when I couldn't figure out why I couldn't get in tune and finally realized it was because of the fan.
    I think the Doppler explanation is correct. The sound echoing off the blades that are coming toward you sounds sharp and the sound echoing off of the blades going away from you sounds flat.

  19. #19
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    If you think ceiling fans affect a mandolin's sound, try the concertina -- it's positively eerie...
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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    I was with Sunburst on this... I was hoping some mando guy was getting attacked by a amorous lady who liked the tunes... wrong fan... I've heard it in my house as well. Usually my 4 year old son who likes to say 3 words through the oscilating fan in his room then collapse in giggles from how funny he is...

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    This thread caused me to chuckle. A few years ago, I fell in love with a guitar at Mandolin Brothers. After several days of agonizing, I called them up and ordered it over the phone. I had them ship it to me in NJ to save on sales tax. When it arrived, I was a little kid at christmas. My girlfriend and her mom are sitting around watching me as I took it out of the case, waiting to hear it. I tune it up and strike my first chord. "What the....?" I thought as it was all warbly and nasty sounding. Hmm...let's tune it again. Ok, it's in tune. Strike another chord. For about 5-10 minutes I am now the saddest little kid at x-mas who just got a big lump of coal in the shape of a mini jumbo. My girlfriend asks me, "You spent how much on that?"

    I was crushed and went into another room to try to diagnose the issue. All of a sudden it sounds great. I walk back into the the kitchen to tell them all is well and play a tune to show them how great it sounds. All of a sudden it sounds awful again. At that point I look up and see the ceiling fan spinning away...

    I can laugh about it now, but I swear they should put warning labels on every ceiling fan out there!
    Eric J. Blankenship

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    Registered User hanknc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    "It is essentially the same effect as a Leslie speaker on a Hammond organ."
    I don't know about that. In a Leslie speaker the sound source rotates. The sound source being in motion (like a passing train whistle) is what gives us the Doppler effect. It lends a very musical, pretty sounding chorus effect to organs and stringed instruments, or any other instrument for that matter.

    The distortion produced by a fan batting around sound waves sounds bad to my ears.
    hanknc

  23. #23
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    I'd really like to hear a mandolin through a Leslie. I've never thought any kind of vibrato or chorus effect sounded good on paired strings, due to the "beating" that ocurs when strings are not perfectly in tune, which rarely happens on every note.

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