Gelas mandolins

[Martin Jonas]

I've just noticed that there was another Ebay auction which ended two weeks ago (Link) for a Rene Gerome mandolin that appears to be identical to the one that I won, except that this one was in absolutely pristine condition. So, this is what mine would have looked like when new -- seems a well-made instrument!

Somewhat annoyingly, the previous one sold for only 122 Euros. Still, the differences in condition between the two mandolins do appear to be largely cosmetic, so I would hope that apart from the missing bit of binding mine will be fine after a clean-up and setup.

Martin

[morgan]

Martin -

The bridge is constructed with flat fleur de lis-style extensions sticking out from either side of the thicker part of the bridge that has the strings going through it. Small phillips-head screws penetrate this extension adjacent to both ends of the thick part of the bridge. I can't see inside to see if these are attached a plate inside the instrument, or just to the top. The bridge wood is very dark - ebony?

[Jim Garber]

I love the French ingenuity in coming up with interesting variants on std designs. I have never played any functional Gelas mandolins but I can truly say that the design makes me queasy. I am not sure what the point is except weirdness and the inverting of the direction of string pressure. Then again, I suppose the proof is in the playing.

I look fwd to hearing the reports from Gelas owners but, unless someone gives me one or I hear the beautiful tones, I doubt there is one in my future.

Still it certanly is an interesting subject.

[brunello97]

I love the French ingenuity in coming up with interesting variants on std designs.....

Me too. Which is why I am looking forward to Frere Martin's report. My Father had an unfathomable attraction to French cars. Imagine myself and five brothers (sister, too) crammed into the Renault pictured. But check the Citroen steering wheel. The Gelas design quirks start to come into focus....

Mick

[morgan]

Hey, my mom's first car was a Renault Dauphin. I think she had two of those before she got a Renault 5 ("Le Car") before she got smarter about her car buying habits. (We only had to fit four kids in). Maybe that's where the Gelas attraction started...

But I don't remember anything in those cars that matches the Citroen steering wheel.

[brunello97]

I think my father went through 2 or 3 Dauphines before getting an R8 (with the pre-dented front hood, remember?) He bagged it by the time the Le Junque models came out. Not that I learned. My first car was a SAAB 96. A Levin mandolin it was not. Never owned a Citroen but rode in a Cockroach from Paris to Pau one time. What a ride. A visit to Mirecourt would be fun.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

Well, I've won it at 143 Euros plus a fairly reasonable postage of 18 Euros to the UK. Let's see what it looks like when I get it. I'm not sure to what extent Mick's impression of a high action is down to the angle of the photographs and to what extent it's real. Needs a good clean-up, probably some fret dressing/levelling, and a binding repair. I hope nothing structural.

After a bit of delay, I have now received the Rene Gerome mandolin. There are some condition issues which will need some attention, although it's all doable. There is a crack that wasn't visible on the photos. It's pretty tight and I hope I can stabilise it by just working some glue into it as I don't think it can be cleated from the inside without taking off both tops. That's something I definitely want to avoid. Other than that, it needs some clean-up and some binding repair (I knew that from the photos), the tuners need overhauling and some new screws to hold them to the headstock and it needs a new nut/string spacer (not a precision job, as there is a zero fret). Most significantly, Mick was right that the action is way too high. Not sure why, as there is no sign of the neck, the top or the bridge having moved. I think it can be rectified by shaving quite a bit off the bridge -- it's huge with loads of room for action adjustments. I think I can do it all myself, but I don't know when I'll get around to it.

I'm still confused about the age. From the Mirecourt references I've posted before I had assumed that it was a very late example of a Gelas mandolin, and indeed that it may have been built after the original patent had expired, which may explain why unlike with most of these there is no mention of the name of Gelas or the patent on the label. However, that doesn't sit easy with the fact that the mandolin has bar frets, which I thought everybody except CF Martin had given up on by the 1930s. Rene Gerome only started making instruments in the 1930s, so I would think that makes it a very early example of his work (and fortunately also means it probably predates the time when his factory expanded to make massmarket instruments sold through Hohner). All in all a bit of a mixed bag, but definitely with potential.

Martin

[brunello97]

Thanks for the update, Martin. I look forward to hearing your comments on its sound (and maybe someday a bit of video.) Is it odd to play or does your right hand find a comfortable resting place? You are right, the bridge looks a like a bit of a log and hopefully you can get the action sorted out. Keep us posted when you get after it. I can empathize. Work has gotten very busy and my mando repair projects are sitting idly by. Nothing quite as interesting as this, though.

Mick

[yellowbarber]

(wow, I can't believe this thread is still going!)
I got started on a conversation about Gelas mandos earlier tonight then got back to the 'puter and strted looking around for more info on them which thus led me here.
So, I am in Paris (as I seem to habitually end up) and an acquaintance has a Jean Roviès made ca. 1930 octave that is in totally sound condition, it just needs a new nut, a clean up and strings. He had another one last year when I was over and I'd go by and play it often. I remember it having a fantastic warm low end and the shorter than usual scale made the upper register come off like an oud. The funky geometry actually sat comfortably in my lap. If I magically fall into a few extra hundred euro-bucks, I just may be looking for a way to get it home (along with all the other french junk I manage to attract).

Regarding the mandolins proper, however I've yet to see one that wasn't thoroughly trashed or seduced me into playing it. Although if I get a chance to go out to StChartier to have a drool at Sinier de Ridder's, I'd say this one looks delicious: http://sinierderidder.free.fr/mandolines/gelas_eng.html

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks for the info, yellowbarber, and I hope you're enjoying Paris!

I don't know if you've seen the photos of my "new" Rene Gerome I've posted in this thread in the Builders/Repairs forum. I've taken the bridge height down to about the right action now, but haven't got around to putting the saddle back in for correct intonation yet, and in particular also still need to deal with the string guide holes that are the subject of that other discussion. I expect I'll manage to get around to it this weekend and then will have a better idea how the Rene Gerome incarnation of the Gelas design lives up the the generally favourable reports in this thread for the Jean Roviès versions. There seem to be quite a few incidental differences in design and of course there is no particular reason why two instruments by two different builders should be of similar quality just because they are of the same type -- after all we all know that there are considerable differences in quality and tone between bowlbacks from different builders, or F5s for that matter.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Gelas Bowlback on eBay Netherlands. The seller does not mention anything about the actual maker, but there are a few photos of the label which do show J.R.

Gelas bowl back mandolin Gelas patented the double top type of instrument back in the 1920's. These type of mandolins were considered of high quality with very good tone, and were used extensively in mandolin orchestra's. Most of them were flat-backs, That's why this one maybe considered very rare. A bowl-back is A-Typical for Gelas. This mandolin is made in 1932 and also quite early it features all the good things Gelas is known for, quality wood, spruce top, maple back, pearwood bidings, Walnut neck, Excellent condition with the exception of a few gleated cracks on top. The Bridge is still original as are the tuners, and frets, A pretty rare Mandolin, must be very appealling to Gelas Collectors, The Action is pretty low, and the bridge leaves room to lower a bit further. it has a terrific sound. On top of it the mandolin is very fancy and nicely decorated, We have no case for it but take care of excellent double packing and insured shipping. It is a consignment sale.

[Michael Wolf]

One more Gelas sighting on Günter Amendts site, though not a mandolin. But I find it very interesting and I reckon Gelas guitars a very rare.

[Michael Wolf]

While I´m at it, here´s a Gelas "Hawaiian" model that can be seen in the "Musikinstrumenten Museum Berlin".

[Jim Garber]

One more Gelas sighting on Günter Amendts site, though not a mandolin. But I find it very interesting and I reckon Gelas guitars a very rare.

Why does he say "internal resonator"? Is there something inside this contraption?

[Michael Wolf]

Why does he say "internal resonator"? Is there something inside this contraption?

I think that he´s referring to the double top construction and decided to call it a resonator.

[delsbrother]

Gelas Harp Guitar from Harpguitars.net.

[Martin Jonas]

I've been working on my new (to me) Gelas and it's now playable, although there is still some work to be done on the bits of missing binding. To get an idea of the tone and the playability, I've recorded a couple of quick-and-dirty video clips, one very simple (a folk tune from the Swedish community in Finland, "Vem kan segla"), the other rather more complex (Victor's "Ionian Mandolinata"). The most immediate insight from this was that the action was still too high -- my fingers were hurting after I finished playing (which may explain me getting sloppier at the end of the Mandolinata). So, I got the file out again and have taken the bridge down a bit more. Should be OK now. There are a few a poorly-fretted notes in the clips, which I think are largely because I'm not familair with the mandolin yet, but this should also improve with playing time and also with the lower action.

I think the tone is quite nice, and may still improve further. I have put some Lenzner bronze strings on, on the assumption that this is basically a classical mandolin. Lenzners are notoriously slow to settle down, and the mandolin hasn't been played in decades, so presumably the tone will still improve further in the next few weeks. I might try some d'Addario J62 or GHS strings at same stage, too, just to see whether they suit it better. With my Mid-Missouri, I first tried Lenzners and didn't like it at all, whereas GHS are great.

So, it has a nice and strong tone, but I don't think it fits into any categories -- it doesn't much sound like a bowlback and it doesn't much sound like a flattop. Again, I'll reassess that once it has been played a bit, and also once I've tried a variety of strings to find its tru voice. For now, I think this is fairly promising.

Here are the clips:

1. Vem kan segla:



2. Ionian Mandolinata:



[For comparison, the same tune on my Embergher is here.]

Martin

[Ronny]

"Gelas" was not a company, but a double top patent for whatever string instrument.

Gelas was the name of the luthier too :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_G%C3%A9las

(I'm now the proud owner of an old Gelas mando - still on my workbench !!)

[brunello97]

Thanks, Ronny. I'd love to see some photos of your Gelas mandolin.

The wikipedia article you link to has some interesting links in its own right:

Link to an array of Gelas Instruments

Link to La Musée de la Musique

Link to La Musée de la Musique Mécanique If you are ever in Geneva....

Restoration of a Gelas Guitar Great photos here.

Mick

[Ronny]

Gelas was the name of the luthier too :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_G%C3%A9las

(I'm now the proud owner of an old Gelas mando - still on my workbench !!)

My Gelas mandolin now works...
Here's a little video of it (sorry if the D strings are a little out of tune !!!)