Small portable pa

[Tim2723]

Hey Ed, how about posting a pic of one of the Peavey 10" sitting next to the 15" to give folks an idea of the portability? I think a lot of readers would benefit from that. We get a number of questions about 15" speakers around here and it's unusual to know somebody with large and small versions of the same product. 15" doesn't sound like much in the catalog and people are often shocked at just how big they are comparred to what a 10" can accomplish.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...
Quick question: In the venues you've played so far, have you had to turn the amp up above mid-way yet? My sense is that you're working at fairly tame volume levels playing to attentive crowds judging from the pictures you've posted.

Our venues/crowds have all been very attentive and quite so far. Each time we've used the PA up to this point we've actually adjusted the volume down from what we thought we'd need at the start of the gig. We haven't gotten anywhere near 12:00 yet.

BTW, can you post a bigger version of the pic so we can see more detail? For some reason that one doesn't zoom when you click it.

Let's try this...You should be able to click on this three times, with each click enlarging it. (Beware the extreme "paleness" of the back of my legs...It could blind you! )



Oh, and I'll definitely take a picture of one of the PR-10 speakers next to a PR-15 at our next rehearsal.

[Tim2723]

That explains a lot about your need for monitors. You haven't yet scratched the surface of what that amp can do. As ambient noise and output volume increases your need for monitors will probably become better defined. But no matter, you know what to do in that case. Just be careful with that thing. It is capable of producing sound at levels that can hurt you.

[allenhopkins]

Trivia: Do you know why 9v batteries are used as the standard for musicians gear even when they might have to be throttled back internally to a lower voltage and go dead so fast? Nine volt batteries don't roll off the bar in the dark. If everything uses the same battery you can steal one from something you don't need to power something you do….

I have some Electrovoice BK-1 condenser mics that I still use; must be 20+ years old now, but I really like the sound of them for vocals. Put 'em up against Shure SM-58's any day.

Now that all or most of my PA mixers have phantom power, the fact that the BK-1's use 4.5-volt batteries isn't really an issue, but for years I was special-ordering the batteries through Radio Shack. I still have four of the batteries sitting in a plastic bag in my basement refrigerator, unused, against the day when I'll have to use a BK-1 in a non-phantom application. Can't pick up 4.5v batteries off the shelf anywhere. They look like somewhat enlarged AA batteries, and, luckily, last a very long time in use; gather some of the Polaroid instant cameras used them too.

Bought a little 9v-powered "phantom" unit, insurance against having to use condenser mics directly plugged into my Passport 150, which doesn't have phantom power. Handles two channels.

Later: Harmony Central thread on the BK-1. I knew there was some reason I liked 'em and bought four, back in the day...

[Tim2723]

Sometimes I wonder if Allen is a musician or the curator of a museum.

[allenhopkins]

Me too. Except I use all the "exhibits" from time to time. Didn't keep the Shure VocalMaster, though; there's a real museum piece of a "small portable PA."

[oldwave]

Hey I played many gigs with vocal master. Funny how the line arrays are coming back. Also we played many gigs with a tapco mixer and a salvaged amp from an electric piano. No eq effects or monitors. My favorite ev mike was. Pl6.

[Tim2723]

There are a couple of groups that preserve the Vocal Master just as there are some clubs that keep the Ford Edsel alive. If I understand what they say, there are only a couple of electronic flaws that made the Vocal Master less than what it could have been. If you still had yours it might have been re-wired slightly to overcome the problems. As I remember them they weren't too bad (We had one in my high school). As long as you knew just where to whack it with a beer bottle it was fine. As far as portable, I remember it took six boys to carry it from the AV room the auditorium.

And BTW, I mean no disrespect. The Vocal Master is the grandpappy of them all.

[Ed Goist]

Hey Ed, how about posting a pic of one of the Peavey 10" sitting next to the 15" to give folks an idea of the portability? I think a lot of readers would benefit from that. We get a number of questions about 15" speakers around here and it's unusual to know somebody with large and small versions of the same product. 15" doesn't sound like much in the catalog and people are often shocked at just how big they are comparred to what a 10" can accomplish.

I just remembered that we supplied the PA for a Holiday Picnic/Jam on Saturday. Fortunately a friend snapped the pic below. You can see the PR15 speakers being used as the mains facing forward, and the PR10 speakers are being used as monitors (sitting on folding chairs in front of the stage and facing the stage). This should provide a decent comparison of the size.

Peavey PR15: 21.5" x 28.75" x 17" - 42 lbs.
Peavey PR10: 14" x 19.5" x 13.25" - 28 lbs.

The 14# difference is really noticeable when hauling the speakers. Also, the PR15s are incredibly bulky and difficult to transport in (fit into) most cars.

[allenhopkins]

...And BTW, I mean no disrespect. The Vocal Master is the grandpappy of them all.

Only took high impedance mics, though.

If you had the "half columns," it was more or less "portable." I had the big columns, and they were heavy.

[Tim2723]

Yeah, they were a little heavy, especially for high school freshmen of the sort that haunted the AV club (read: not on the football tream), but actually the full six-speaker columns didn't weigh much more than Ed's 15" Peavey speakers in the picture above (thanks Ed!). At least you didn't have to hoist them up onto tripods. The six-channel head was a major improvement being early solid state. The big amplifier in the auditorium PA sytem was all tubes and seldom worked. The Vocal Master wasn't the first PA of course, but it was a major step forward in portable band gear. You could use low-Z mics if you had matching transformers; a product that curiously hasn't changed at all in half a century. It wasn't as if there were thousands of mics to choose from anyway.

Kind of makes me realize how spoiled I've become having a six-channel PA with far more power and many times the features that I can carry in one hand.

For the curious, here's the VocalMaster manual:

http://edmullen.net/manuals/Shure_Vo...o_va300_ug.pdf

[Terry Allan Hall]

I respectfully disagree, based on 30 years of gigging and owning/operating portable PA systems. Powered speakers have many advantages over the old-school approach of passive speakers and power amps, which is why they're taking over the market for both portable gear and large concert line array systems.

The first advantage is bi-amping (or even tri-amping, but that won't usually be found in the weekend warrior systems we talk about here). This allows cleaner sound, because each speaker on either side of the crossover point gets its own matched power amp and driver. A hit on the kick drum or bass doesn't suck headroom from whatever is running through the driver for the highs. It's certainly possible to bi-amp a passive speaker cabinet, but in practice that's not something most weekend warriors are going to know how to do, or want to bother with.

The second advantage with powered speakers is dedicated DSP (digital signal processing). Most powered speakers now on the market include at least some DSP for fine-tuning the EQ response of the speakers, and providing limit protection. Some speakers, like the QSC K-series speakers I use, include advanced tricks like dynamically shifting the crossover point as the speaker reaches maximum output, to protect the low-end driver and let the speaker reach maximum SPL output. Speaking of protection, it's almost impossible to blow a powered speaker by overdriving it, because the limiter will just kick in before the amp starts to clip with a too-hot signal. With a passive speaker, you'd better know what you're doing when matching it with a power amp. Powered speakers are much better for newbies to running PA speakers in that respect. Blown speakers are expensive to repair.

Some of the newest powered speakers include other DSP features like built-in mini mixers, and even auto-feedback reduction circuits. I'm a bit skeptical about that one, but it's a trend we're going to see more of, I think.

The third major advantage of powered speakers is lighter overall weight for the gear carried to the gig, because the amps get a "free" enclosure in the speaker cabinet shell that you're carrying anyway.

The fourth advantage of powered speakers is redundancy compared to single-amp systems like a powered mixer. If the amp dies in a powered mixer, the show is over (unless you're carrying a spare powered mixer). If the amp dies in a system using two or more powered speakers, the show goes on... you're just down one speaker.

And (finally!) the fifth advantage of powered speakers is that you'll be using them with a passive mixer, and there are much better passive mixers available -- even at fairly low cost -- than what you'll find in a powered mixer. Try to find a powered mixer with sweep mid EQ, for example. Powered mixers tend to come with bells and whistles that aren't all that useful, like graphic EQ that just takes up space and doesn't have narrow enough bandwidth to fine-tune the room or control feedback without wrecking your sound.

Just my opinion, but I think the only application remaining these days for separate passive speakers and power amps is in either low budget all-in-one rigs like the Fender Passport, or certain very high-end situations where you want to fly line arrays and keep the weight down, and retain local control of power amps and crossover management. Passive speakers are also better if you need to set up in exposed weather conditions and not worry too much about a little rain on the cabinet, or direct sun exposure in very hot weather (some powered speakers are heat-sensitive). But those are special cases.

FWIW, I used to be a fan of separate cabs and power amps too, back in the day. Then I bought my first powered Mackie SRM450, something like 15 years ago, and I never looked back.

I'm glad you like powered speakers/passive mixers, but they have no advantage over powered mixer/passive speaker rigs. One system is as dependable as another, if you use quality components.

And, as a matter of fact, I owned a pair of SRM450s, and while they were acceptable sounding, they weren't an improvement over my Carvin rig, and I eventually sold them for a slight profit.

Been happy with Carvin PA gear since 1977, and have never had one to stop working...still have my 1st one, a 100-watt 4-channel, which gets used mostly as a loaner, along with a couple of 12" + horn cabs, and occasionally for other uses. My Gospel-singer cousin has my 200-watt 6-channel Carvin, which I bought a few years after the 1st one. Sold the 8-channel (2 X 250watts) when I got the 12-channel.

Carvins, with intelligent care, are great!

[almeriastrings]

I'm glad you like powered speakers/passive mixers, but they have no advantage over powered mixer/passive speaker rigs. One system is as dependable as another, if you use quality components.

It does not matter if they are the best quality in the world - but the redundancy element of having multiple power amplifiers available wins out over relying on just one any time. The built-in bi-amplification is also a huge plus in favor of powered speakers: there is no hard-wired crossover to burn out and waste energy, for one thing. You can perfectly match a pair of power amplifiers to the LF and HF drivers. Much more efficient, and instead of relying on inductor-based X-overs, you will be using more accurate (and adjustable) electronic X-overs. Also, today, certainly in the higher end units, the power amplifiers will be Class D. Very little heat generation for the power delivered, high reliability, and incredibly low weight (no transformers). There are also fewer capacitance, resistance and induction effects as a consequence of no need for long cable runs carrying heavy currents on the outputs. It all adds up to a very attractive and high performance package, hence, their popularity.

[Tim2723]

Like Terry, I too have never had an amplifier fail in some forty years of playing. But like the Sword of Damocles, the threat of it hung constantly over my head to the point that I carried redundant powered mixers. Powered speakers have not removed any of the risk that an amplifier might fail, but they have provided a very convenient security blanket.

Two things not mentioned are that first, powered speakers enable a modular design allowing a performer to choose from a small coffeehouse rig to a massive multi-thousand watt coliseum system and everything in between. Second, and I think this is even more important, powered speakers are where the money is going. All the research is directed to the newest technology. The next major advancement in sound reinforcement, whatever that may be, will emerge from powered speaker technology.

Is this to say that the traditional powered mixer /passive speaker concept is going away? Certainly not. Even now you can easily buy a PA system that is not very far removed from the Shure Vocal Master. But the next great thing will not come from that evolutionary dead end.

[oldwave]

Powered speakers are what I use now also, however, I do wish someone would make a lightweight 3 way powered speaker with a 6.5 cone mid-range and a 12 like the old Community S series. For many years I used a 3 way Community with a 15 on the bottom and it always sounded so much better than the two way systems, paper in the mid-range smooths out the harshness for acoustic music. Biggest problem was the darn things were 80 lbs and I am 61. The 12s were only 53 lbs but are discontinued. (Also I have noticed the cheaper two way speaker the harsher them seem to sound in that critical mid-range but the Community speakers were always high quality in there mid range and up series). My compromise is going to two Yamaha DSR 8s and a 12 inch Yamaha sub-woofer (on order) that's heavy but I have wheels. The DSRs sound really good and are cheaper than the QSC K series. Its a great time for us old guys as the equipment gets lighter all the time and sounds great.

[foldedpath]

Powered speakers are what I use now also, however, I do wish someone would make a lightweight 3 way powered speaker with a 6.5 cone mid-range and a 12 like the old Community S series. For many years I used a 3 way Community with a 15 on the bottom and it always sounded so much better than the two way systems, paper in the mid-range smooths out the harshness for acoustic music. Biggest problem was the darn things were 80 lbs and I am 61.

Even with today's lightweight Class-D amps and neodymium magnet speakers, the weight still adds up to a heavy speaker when it's 3-way with a cone speaker midrange. There's just no way around it, mainly due to the speaker weight and larger cabinet size.

With the current trend toward bi-amped powered speakers over a sub, there aren't many manufacturers still making integrated tri-amped cabinets.

The closest thing to what you're looking for in a 3-way is probably the new Line6 StageSource L3m, although it still weighs 57.5 lbs. It uses two 10" speakers and a 1" compression driver/horn. If I read the specs right, one 10" speaker handles everything under 250 Hz, the second one covers 250 Hz to 2 kHz - 7 kHz (adjustable per speaker mode), and the compression driver handles the highs above that point. So you'd have a 10" speaker handling the midrange frequencies as with the old passive 3-way setups. Then again, 57 lbs.... woof! I just crossed over the 60 year age point myself, and that's about twice what I want to lift up on a speaker pole, or pack in the car, these days.

For what it's worth... I used to buy into the idea that you needed a paper speaker cone to get smooth and natural-sounding reproduction in the midrange where acoustic instruments (mostly) live. The conventional wisdom was that compression drivers/horns were harsh-sounding by comparison. But these new bi-amped designs -- especially once you get up into larger 1.75" and 2" compression drivers -- sound much better to my ears than the old gear I used to use. They're not like the bad old horn designs with cheap piezo drivers any more, except at the lowest end of the price range. And the big advantage with a compression driver coupled to a waveguide (horn) is wide dispersion across the audience, which is hard to get with a single paper cone speaker.

[Barry Wilson]

I used one of those small mackies directly in front on the mic stand this weekend and I hated it. it wasn't mine, and was setup that way for the other musicians. I had to turn it down as being so close it was too much in your face. I much prefer it off to the side. only 2 mics on stage. Bass player and I shared a mic for one song with floor monitors. prefer that by far.

[TonyP]

I don't like the sound of the little Mackie's that close either. I also don't like the way they mount on a mic stand. But when you get away from them, I think they sound better than a wedge. I guess it's all what you are used to, but I've never liked wedges. I don't get needing a 12 and some kind of horn blasting away from the floor.

In highfi and studio monitoring, it has always been about having the speaker approx. at head height. So my little 150's are mounted off the back of the main speaker stands, pointing at the band about head height and level. They have more than enough umph to cover the whole band(from 3 to 6 players depending on the setup) and so far everybody's been happy.

[Barry Wilson]

I thought I would pop back on this thread. I have had some dreadful luck with these little mackies. The first one we had me with the godin in one channel and a mic for harmonica in the other. it was just over 3 on master volume. we played about 4 songs in first set with the house band, second set nothing. Power light just pulsed and no sound. The music store replaced it right away with a new one. I used it once and it has been put away a while since I havent needed it. I plugged it in last weekend to rehearse some stuff with a drummer. just for vocals.... blue light was pulsing, no sound. The music store had me call Mackie. They are sending me another new one out but they are back ordered, so I have to wait...

I am running down to the music store for a couple powered yorkvilles today. And I am getting a store credit on my account when the mackie finally arrives. I am not even going to open the box for the little guy.

[mandroid]

Doesnt Yorkville come from 'across the pond'?
Suppose CDNs get UK gear as commonly as stuff from south of the border.

[Barry Wilson]

Canadian made stuff that Yorkville .. being we were british commonwealth, we still use the terms hehe http://www.yorkville.com/

I ended up getting a couple passive yorkville monitors and an art power amp. now I have the floor monitors covered. I am hosting an open jam sunday and we are the house band. fun as I get to play bass, guitar, mando. we back up the drop in musicians when needed after we play.

I just lost faith in the reliability of those mackies. my keyboard amp is a yorkville and I use it for acoustic stuff as well as midi guitar. sometimes it was my pa too hehe as it has an xlr on ch1.

[mandroid]

Y'Ha has a nice PA , 4 channel powered mixer , is removable from one,

if you get the 2nd one the same space can stow cables in the cabinet.

then you get stands to get them up a ways .

[Terry Allan Hall]

It does not matter if they are the best quality in the world - but the redundancy element of having multiple power amplifiers available wins out over relying on just one any time. The built-in bi-amplification is also a huge plus in favor of powered speakers: there is no hard-wired crossover to burn out and waste energy, for one thing. You can perfectly match a pair of power amplifiers to the LF and HF drivers. Much more efficient, and instead of relying on inductor-based X-overs, you will be using more accurate (and adjustable) electronic X-overs. Also, today, certainly in the higher end units, the power amplifiers will be Class D. Very little heat generation for the power delivered, high reliability, and incredibly low weight (no transformers). There are also fewer capacitance, resistance and induction effects as a consequence of no need for long cable runs carrying heavy currents on the outputs. It all adds up to a very attractive and high performance package, hence, their popularity.

Not if you think in advance and have the right amount of power...in almost 40 years of earning my living as a troubadour, I've never found any venue that didn't have a house system if my rig wasn't powerful enough. As for weight, my PA1200 weighs 28#, the cabs 30#. And, I'm not kidding, there's no advantage of one style over the other, which is why approx. as many powered mixer/passive cab set-ups are in use as passive mixer/active cab set-ups. Both are good.

And I've never had an audience member or venue management ever question me as to why I don't follow the latest "fad" in PA gear...quality wins out, whichever style you choose, and there's a reason why Carvin, like Fender, has been in business for over 60 years.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Canadian made stuff that Yorkville .. being we were british commonwealth, we still use the terms hehe http://www.yorkville.com/

I ended up getting a couple passive yorkville monitors and an art power amp. now I have the floor monitors covered. I am hosting an open jam sunday and we are the house band. fun as I get to play bass, guitar, mando. we back up the drop in musicians when needed after we play.

I just lost faith in the reliability of those mackies. my keyboard amp is a yorkville and I use it for acoustic stuff as well as midi guitar. sometimes it was my pa too hehe as it has an xlr on ch1.

Yorkville makes good stuff...Mackie used to be good, too, but, apparently, QC is not doing their job, judging from how much new Mackie gear gets sent back.

[Barry Wilson]

well as monitors the yorkvilles with the art amp was superb. I hosted the jam yesterday. all the acoustic players incl a flamenco guy used the yorky kb amp, and even when things got rocking we never turned the monitors above 1/4

mackie did pay for purolator to pick up and return the defective unit, I will give them that. they said my replacement had been ordered and shipped out but no tracking info yet. I am saddened the mackie didn't pan out better but I think I will find another micro amp to fit in my motorcycle trunk when I need it.