Small portable pa

[Ed Goist]

Tim, we just formed, so I'm thinking we are still in the probationary period... Upping the ante? Maybe 6 months or so down the road if the chemistry remains...

Can a microphone or instrument be plugged into one of the 1/4" RCA Stereo inputs on the PassPort? I'm guessing it would work in just one channel, but that would be workable.

[almeriastrings]

T

Can a microphone or instrument be plugged into one of the 1/4" RCA Stereo inputs on the PassPort?

No. You would probably be OK using these for a small keyboard input, but certainly not with a mic or guitar transducer. They are consumer line level, unbalanced (-10dBV). Intended mainly for routing a CD or MP3 player into the system. SOME guitars with built in active preamps MIGHT work, however, the impedances would be off and (I have not sen one) but I doubt there is much, if any, EQ available on this input.

I concur the Yamaha Stagepass systems are a very good bet in this type of rig. They sound good, are light (Class D amps) and are easy to carry.

[allenhopkins]

What I have done (for years) is use the very basic Fender Passport 150, which has only three (oops, the new ones are down to two) mic inputs, plus a small Behringer five-channel mixer plugged into the "aux" inputs.

The new 150 apparently has two, what I would guess are "instrument," inputs with quarter-inch sockets, so you could use those.

My 150, which is over a decade old now, has plenty of "guts" for the purposes you describe. I used it with the sub-mixer a couple weeks ago to amplify four musicians plus caller, for a Civil War dance outdoors under a big tent. Worked fine.

You could get the whole package for probably less than $500 discounted. Lots of small mixers available by a variety of manufacturers, if you share the general "Behringer skepticism" (mine's worked fine for 15 years, but, as they say, YMMV).

A consideration is that the Passport (at least my older one) doesn't have monitor send capabilities, so I have been using a Galaxy Audio Powered Hot Spot plugged into the sub-mixer.

[Tim2723]

Ok, probationary period. Got it. I'm going to throw my vote in for the StagePass by Yamaha, but only because I'm a Yamaha guy. I do the same with the Fishman/Bose thing, so take it as you will.

For the money, and especially for a probationary run, the Behringer mixers are hard to beat. I'm not a super fan of them in general, but for the right people and the right reasons they're great. I think you fit that bill in this case. I've used two Berhinger products for several years with no complaints. At least not about how well they do the job.

Personally I would get a mixer that has all the inputs (and more) that you need rather than mix and match inputs from the mixer and the PA head itself. One wire going into the PA from the mixer, all inputs attached to the mixer. It's a cleaner, easier approach and eliminates all the concerns about how many inputs are on the PA and what they are. You just plug the mixer into the aux input and use the PA's main volume as the 'power amp'. That way all the EQ controls respond the same, etc, etc. You can also move the whole shebang from one PA to the next with no hassles. Every amp has at least one input, and that's all you need when you do it that way.

Easy as pie and you can do it within your budget.

[Dan Hulse]

I tend to agree with Tim, that it is easier to adjust everything in one place. Our band uses a Bose L2 w/ tone module (4 inputs) and a small Behringer sub mixer to accomodate 4 vocals & 2 instruments. So it's doable, but can be a pain. The Bose is very convenient but it comes at a steep price tag. On the other hand, resale value is very high as well.

[almeriastrings]

I tend to agree with Tim, that it is easier to adjust everything in one place.

Definitely.

I also think the current Behringer's are better than many give them credit for. Respectable performance, and highly affordable. The Soundcraft and Allen & Heath are a step up, but cost a fair bit more. For "weekend warriors", the Behringer's are not to be knocked.

[foldedpath]

I also think the current Behringer's are better than many give them credit for. Respectable performance, and highly affordable. The Soundcraft and Allen & Heath are a step up, but cost a fair bit more. For "weekend warriors", the Behringer's are not to be knocked.

Oh, I'll knock them.

Assuming we're talking about the compact analog models with low channel counts, the big objection I have with not just Behringer but also Mackie and other small mixers, is that they use proprietary "line lump" external power supplies.

Power supplies are one of the most common points of failure with mixers, and those external ones can be a pain to replace. They're only used to keep the price as low as possible, with products that are marketed internationally with different local AC power. For just a little more money, you can get a better compact mixer with an internal power supply.

For example, compare two compact mixers with 4 mic preamps -- the Behringer Xenyx 1202FX and the Allen & Heath Zed-10. In addition to much more flexible mid-sweep EQ, the A&H mixer has an internal power supply. All you need is a standard IEC power cord. Yeah, it's $140 more, but that's not much money to get a much better compact mixer. For $50 more, the Zed-10 FX adds effects like the Behringer. That's the mixer I use for our minimalist outdoor setups. Sometimes it's unavoidable to use gear with line lump power supplies (like my wireless receivers), but I'll avoid it wherever possible. Internal power supplies are just more reliable, in my experience.

For Ed's budget, an all-in-one compact system like the Passport might be the only option, maybe with an external compact mixer if there aren't enough inputs. Personally I'm not a fan of the all-in-one systems like the Passport, because you're locked into a fixed setup that can't be expanded (or reduced) for different situations, like a more modular PA system with separate components. But $650 isn't much to work with, so the Passport might be the only realistic option here.

[almeriastrings]

Oh, I'll knock them.

Assuming we're talking about the compact analog models with low channel counts, the big objection I have with not just Behringer but also Mackie and other small mixers, is that they use proprietary "line lump" external power supplies.

Not the current ones...

[Dan Hulse]

Good point FP. My Behringer does have a wall wart adapter. Weakest link? Hmmm, I've been contemplating the Allen & Heath for a while. Been using my (used) Behringer for over 2 years w/o issue, but now you have me thinking I should make it a priority purchase & keep the other for a back up.

[foldedpath]

Not the current ones...

Not some of the current ones, true. Those two are the slightly larger frame mixers with faders instead of rotary knobs for channel volume. Unless I'm mistaken, the smaller Behringer mixers with knob "faders" (more directly comparable to the A&H Zed-10) do use line lump power supplies. So the best thing is just to check first before buying.

And I still think the relatively small price difference for a better brand of mixer is worth it, with these little compact mixers with low channel counts. Especially compared to the total cost of a PA system at this level. Anyone setting up their first PA will be spending more than that $150 difference on just cables and stands, and some things like mic and speaker stands can be bought secondhand. Why go cheap with the mixer, when it will end up as the centerpiece of the PA system? Just my perspective on things...

[foldedpath]

Good point FP. My Behringer does have a wall wart adapter. Weakest link? Hmmm, I've been contemplating the Allen & Heath for a while. Been using my (used) Behringer for over 2 years w/o issue, but now you have me thinking I should make it a priority purchase & keep the other for a back up.

Backups are a good thing. I'm about to start packing for a big wedding gig tomorrow for our duo, where we're setting up two separate, small PA systems. One is the larger setup indoors for the post-ceremony cocktail hour, using our Soundcraft MFXi8 mixer and K10 speakers. The other is outdoors for the ceremony, using the Zed-10FX mixer and one or two ZXA-1 speakers. We normally use those as monitors, but they're good for outdoor events like this, where we need a low visual profile and low power draw. As a backup, I'm bringing my old (original series) Mackie 1202 compact mixer.

The cool thing about a modular PA with passive mixers and powered speakers, is that as long as I have one backup mixer held in reserve, then no single thing can fail and take down the gig. If one powered speaker dies, there are others to replace it. Or we just fall back on one less speaker. The mixer is the only mission-critical gadget, so there is always a backup on hand. I'm fairly paranoid about this kind of thing.

[UsuallyPickin]

Gotta give the Fender Passport two thumbs up. It's portable. It's light . THe driver and speakers snap together into one unit. It's got a channel set up to add a small mixer for adding channels. It's got a line output if you want to add a powered monitor. THe new ones have a slot for a thumb drive if you want to record your preformances. THe stands are aluminum so they are light also. Three trips in from the vehicle and you have all you need for a small gig. The Passport is sized at 150w 300w and 500w, the larger the amp the more channels are built in. Bose and Fishman make nice rigs as well. They are a bit pricier......... R/

[TonyP]

I don't know if this thread has jumped the rails and is now not holding to the OP, but, here's another cheap/small option:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...onitor-speaker

Yeah, it's Berhinger, but I've heard one, and it's almost exactly like my Mackie 150. Hard to get any more compact that this. My experience is if it hangs together for a couple of gigs, it's probably good to go for years. For vocals, and just fiddle it would work good. Works good for guitar too, just don't want to run bass through it.

[Tim2723]

"Line lump" power supplies as a problem? Sometimes I think we really have to stretch to find things to complain about. I have a half-dozen of those in constant service one place or another (including the one that allows me to type this) and not one has failed. I'll agree about the proprietary set up issues that make them hard if not impossible to replace, but a significant failure mode? Seriously? And what if they do fail? A $100 mixer bites the dust. Really now...Honestly.

[Barry Wilson]

I looked at the fender passport an was really leaning to a set of those mackie 150's. I like the mic stand mount to use as monitors for band situation, chaining and whatnot. but never heard much about the fenders until here. hmmm

[Michael Weaver]

We use a Peavey Escort 3000 which is the five channel 300 watt one. Check it out. We have not had any problems with it.

[foldedpath]

"Line lump" power supplies as a problem?

(snippage)

Seriously? And what if they do fail? A $100 mixer bites the dust. Really now...Honestly.

Right... honestly!

If a $100 mixer bites the dust in the middle of a gig, then that's a problem for us when we're playing something like a wedding ceremony, where things just have to work, or else the bride is waiting to walk down the aisle and no music is happening. There isn't much slack for gear failure on some gigs like that. So I don't buy $100 mixers... or any other gear in the "so cheap it's easier to throw out than repair" category. It's about peace of mind on the gig, and being able to focus on the music and not worry about the PA gear (like I said, paranoid!).

Bringing it back to the OP -- Ed's budget is tight, but that may not mean he has to buy the very cheapest gear out there and consider it a throwaway item.

[Ed Goist]

We use a Peavey Escort 3000 which is the five channel 300 watt one. Check it out. We have not had any problems with it.

Michael; I've always really liked Peavey stuff, and this looks ideal for us! $700 should be doable.
Thanks for the recommendation.
A couple of follow-up questions:
* I see this weighs 64#. Have you found its portability acceptable?
* What size venues have you played with this?
* Have you used it in an open-air, outdoor setting? If so, how did it do?

[Michael Weaver]

Michael; I've always really liked Peavey stuff, and this looks ideal for us! $700 should be doable.
Thanks for the recommendation.
A couple of follow-up questions:
* I see this weighs 64#. Have you found its portability acceptable?
* What size venues have you played with this?
* Have you used it in an open-air, outdoor setting? If so, how did it do?

Yes it is a little heavy but has handles on both ends and one in the middle which allows two people to carry it at a time if needed. It collapses down very nicely and everything stores away great.

We have played a good size restaurant/bar that was hosting outside patrons to a wine tasting. It was a large room with lots of people walking in and out talking loudly and we still had to manage the output volume. It is a loud system when you need it to be.

We have never played an outside gig with it but I have set it up outside in my front yard which is three acres long and you could hear it fine. I think it's a good choice and you won't be disappointed. The only thing I didn't care for were the speaker stands. They are a little flimsy but they do have upgrades for them. We still use the originals but they make me a little nervous when people walk close to them. Tell me what you think once you get it.

[allenhopkins]

...Personally I would get a mixer that has all the inputs (and more) that you need rather than mix and match inputs from the mixer and the PA head itself. One wire going into the PA from the mixer, all inputs attached to the mixer. It's a cleaner, easier approach and eliminates all the concerns about how many inputs are on the PA and what they are. You just plug the mixer into the aux input and use the PA's main volume as the 'power amp'. That way all the EQ controls respond the same, etc, etc. You can also move the whole shebang from one PA to the next with no hassles. Every amp has at least one input, and that's all you need when you do it that way...

Concur; that's what I do with my little jerry-rig system, except for the very few times I need more than five inputs. And, if I only need the three mic inputs that come with the Passport, I can dispense with the sub-mixer. Only problem is that I'm also precluding the possibility of separate monitor send.

[almeriastrings]

There's no doubt "Wall Wart" and "Line Lump" PSU's can have reliability issues. The connectors on them, and sharp bends at cable entry-exit points also tend to be a real weak point, and yes, the very smallest Behringers (and Yamaha's, incidentally, as well as various other makes) do use those. An inbuilt PSU is certainly preferable.

[Astro]

For small acoustic venues and with 4 or fewer musicians there is some merit to just letting each musician bring their own acoustic amp to play through. Most already have one--or should. Of course each amp must have 2 or 3 inputs with seperate eq's.

There is the advantage that everyone carries their own stuff and with a dry run everyone knows how to eq their set up. I use an old California Blond for this but my bandmates had new Fishman Loud Box's. Inexpensive, very light, sound great, quick straight forward set up. The bass player did bring a bass amp too and he and the drummer both sang through the same acoustic amp for their vocals (but used separate mics). Most of the time the volume on everyones amp was pretty low. These were small restaurant/bar venues. The Loudbox amps were raised knee high and right beside the owner. My Blond weighs a ton but has a kickstand to tilt it back on the floor. The mic stand in front of each of us. Great sound quality. Good separation, you could tell who was singing what because it sounded like it was coming from the right person.

90% of the bands I see around town play too loud. Way too much time is waisted on PA set up and mic checks. We could start playing 10 minutes after walking into a place and no bickering on unloading or set up as everyone was responsible for their own. Of course we would help whoever needed it (always helped the drummer set up).

Something to think about.

[Tim2723]

Ed, if you don't book any weddings or other critical gigs for the next six months with your probationary band that may not stay together anyway, do you think a Fender Passport and a small mixer would work for you, wall warts and all? And if it's a success (and I for one hope it will be), would you be able to invest in a better mixer?

I'm sure all the experienced pros, myself included, would prefer to see you start out with a budget of about three times the stated amount. That way we could help you set up in golden fashion. But with small budgets come some risks, especially reliablitiy issues that may or may not ever happen. How much risk are you willing to take on?

Just as FP and Almeria have their reservations about external PSUs, I've got some concerns about the Peavey Escort. I've heard both good and bad things about them. But then again, we've all heard some bad things about practically anything. Personally, I carry two or three redundant backups for every critical component.

I'm probably more paranoid than FP and the others put together. I still breath a sigh of relief when my gear lights up, even though I've got two more backups in the car.

[TonyP]

Thumbs up Tim, Mr. Voice of Reason, and get 'er done.

Personally, this is why a buy used gear. It's already been "burned in" so if it's hung together this long, I'm usually good to go for what I need. But you also have to know who and what you are dealing with. If it's been gig'd hard and has beer stains on it, I'll pass. If it's been in some guys studio and he's upgrading, I want it. I also like to buy stuff I can use in a bigger system. This is why I was mentioning the Mackie 150. It has a small mixer built in, and phantom. Then it can be used as a monitor on my main system. The all in one's mentioned bother me not only because of the wall warts(which I hate because they can induce buzz in the system, and are a pain because they "eat" up a power strip because of their size) but because it's a passive type speaker. And like FP pointed out, if that one unit goes down, you are totally dead in the water. The only way the show goes on is acoustically. Which isn't always an option.

[Tim2723]

If I had to risk it with a wart or a powered mixer, I'd take the wart. I used a powered mixer for 10 years and it never failed, but I worried all the time. I never actually worried about wall warts until just now.

EDIT: Having thought about it, if I were Ed I'd be more concerned with the band lasting six months than the gear holding up.