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Thread: Not like they used to

  1. #51
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    "I am sorry Jim but none of the players that i consider great that i know personally have never played with their heads....they play what comes to them.....You don't have time to think you just do.....natural as can be....."

    Just what I've been looking for ... Music unencumbered by the thought process!
    "That aint workin', that's the way ya do it ... Yuh play the git-tar on the MTV"

    Curt

  2. #52
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    There are numerous aspects concerning BG and the people that are playing it exclusively (or primarily) that haven't been considered.

    1) How many of today's bluegrassers actually grew up on a farm, or in some small isolated town or know first hand conditions like the classic BG players experienced? #(Also, how many of today's blues players grew up on a farm/plantation or have picked cotton or vegetables?) #Tales/songs of hard living have now become sepia-toned Hallmark greeting card nostalgia.

    2) The marketing of bluegrass over the past 15 years is to recast it as G-rated family-values entertainment. Clean up Unforgiven and turn it into The Apple Dumpling Gang. Performers are expected to conform or at least pay lip service in public to the beliefs/politics of the BG audience(s). If someone wrote a modern version of "Six Months Ain't Long", which was serious about the sentiment ("I can handle jail time, no big deal"), it would be decried #as anti-social, anti-family, etc. etc.

    3) Among the earlier players - there were plenty of lifestyle excesses - alcoholism, drugs (usually amphetamines), promiscuity and adultery, borderline (or not so borderline) lunacy. There was some great playing that came from these people, but that was just an external manifestation of the individual personality/psyche. Do you really think you can get Scott Stoneman/Buzz Busby out of the "mainstream/normal" mind? If some of those guys had come along a few years later (and not started out as #BGers, I wonder how many of them would have opted for rockabilly instead.)

    With mass media and the exposure to such a variety of styles, as opposed to 50 years ago, a would-be musician can find the area that reflects their own psyche. The hellraisers can opt for Southern rock, rockabilly, ot alt country, or something else, where they can freely indulge in "weed, whites & wine" without having to act/pretend like they go to church every Sunday or never express any political views contrary to the majority of the people they are working with or playing for. #

    Now, as far as the trained vs. untrained musician debate.... Instead of music, perhaps you could substitute any of these: philosophy, religion, poitics. You can go to school and learn about the various viewpoints/beliefs of any of those areas and get enough background in them so you could enter a debate taking any side which you were assigned by your professor. OK, musically, you can learn the vocabulary and syntax of various genres, and can demonstrate that you do know that material by playing according to the guidelines and conventions of the genre. But this is intellectually driven and may not have anything to do with your personal tastes and preferences. The trained player can be a chameleon and change the external costume to suit the situation and/or the employment requirements. The untrained (and I use these terms rather vaguely) player is, as Popeye says "I am what I am and that's all that I am. It could be recast as a job vs. avocation or external vs. internal. #(When the internal preferences happen to coincide with the external demands, the trained player is truly unleashed.)

    The conditions that produced the bluegrass of the 40's-50's are pretty much gone forever. That sound is a product of its time period. But there will always be some retro holdovers and revivalists and true believers.

    Niles H

  3. #53
    Registered User Jonathan Peck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (jmcgann @ April 27 2007, 06:50)
    Nope, they don't 'teach' it anywhere...and one man's 'soulful' can be another man's 'slick', so it's all just opinion as to who has what!
    Hey John, no need to nuke the village. I've obviously hit a nerve for mentioning Berklee, so for that I am sorry. BTW - I had no idea that you studied there and my comment wasn't directed towards you personally. I was just using Berklee as an example. It's very hard to name an example and not offend someone.

    As far as your comment about 'say it to my face', no problem there. I would have no issue with repeating anything that I have written in a face to face conversation over a cup of coffee. These are my'opinions' and I'm open to hearing the opinions of others and discussing them (even yours )

    With that (and musical education) aside, who would you rather listen to:

    Jimi Hendrix - or - Yngwie Malmsteen
    Clarence White - or - Tony Rice
    Robert Johnson - or - Keb Mo'
    Bach - or - Mahler
    Mstislav Rostropovich - or - Yo Yo Ma
    Bill Monroe - or - Adam Steffey
    Maria Callas - or -

    All good, but I think you can see the difference that I'm pointing to.
    And now for today's weather....sunny, with a chance of legs

    "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln

  4. #54
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    robert johnson is rollin in his grave over the sarcasm in your post curt!

    there is something wrong with a blues/soul mandolin player?

    what is the point in busting on monroes mandolin? i think it sounded just fine. i know the deal with how it was. but i can listen to an old man play music and hear the legacy of every note he's ever played. i can hear the style, the feel, the soul.
    i can listen to a young man play his mandolin on recordings way before my time and hear the same things with a different energy behind the mandolin.
    what is the point in bringing up monroes mandolin? so i can comment on how it doesnt matter what insturment or what quality of insturment you play, its the music you play.
    im sure none of my mandolins are up to snuff for you either, but i play them and with some soul.
    if i could get better mandolins i would, but it wouldnt change whats important about the music i play.
    i wish john hartford was here with us today to comment on this thread!
    that guy played his fiddle with nothin but soul.

    on another note, who would you consider to be the james brown of bluegrass?
    i think im leaning toward jimmy martin.

  5. #55
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    you go to your church ill go to mine.


  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Hey John, no need to nuke the village. I've obviously hit a nerve for mentioning Berklee, so for that I am sorry. BTW - I had no idea that you studied there and my comment wasn't directed towards you personally. I was just using Berklee as an example. It's very hard to name an example and not offend someone.
    Well, since you used Berklee as an example, I'm asking you to name two graduate players who you consider soulless, to back up your statement from conjecture to fact. Hey, any graduate of any music school will do. We're listening. And if you can't back up your statement with fact, whaddya got? An OPINION that is not based on anything but prejudice?

    Quote Originally Posted by
    With that (and musical education) aside, who would you rather listen to:

    Jimi Hendrix - or - Yngwie Malmsteen
    Clarence White - or - Tony Rice
    Robert Johnson - or - Keb Mo'
    Bach - or - Mahler
    Mstislav Rostropovich - or - Yo Yo Ma
    Bill Monroe - or - Adam Steffey
    Maria Callas - or -
    Since when is it an either/or proposition? Who would you rather hang with, best friend #1 or #1a? Why not have them BOTH bring some beer?

    I would rather listen to all of them and get what each has to offer, rather than looking for what ISN'T there and miss what IS there (read: political agenda)- I don't listen for Hendrix in Ynqwee- I really love the unique aspects of both Clarence AND Tony- thank God we have great recordings of Bill to get Bill!

    Who is the Jimmy Martin of R and B is my question

    PS_ I wasn't 'busting on Monroe's mandolin"- it's just an observation of a true situation. Maybe he'd have sounded more like Adam Steffy with an easy playing mandolin (that's tongue in cheek, son)...

    My issue is with the "it's not enough to succeed, others must fail" attitude that claims education=soulless. It's utter nonsense. Ignorance does not equal soul, nor does education equal soul. Knowing stuff doesn't make you a better player- but it can. Being a better player might make you more soulful.

    There's old school AND new school stuff that is amazing, and vice versa. Everyone is entitled to their likes and dislikes, but don't expect to make sweeping statements that infer that schooled players have no soul without stirring up a fight #



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    I am sorry Jim but none of the players that i consider great that i know personally have never played with their heads....they play what comes to them.....You don't have time to think you just do.....natural as can be.....


    You are mighty confrontational......Did you learn that at Berklee too???
    Travis, my name is not Jim.

    I'm sure your friends are being honest when they say they just play what comes to them. Maybe they are great players. This proves that knowing stuff is somehow slick? "Natural as can be"...why do you think that players who know stuff don't just play naturally as well? Are we up there with calculators and pocket protectors analyzing everything?

    I learned how to be confrontational at Riker's Island Charm School (class of '76). When I see people taking potshots at what I do, I don't mind jumping in and standing up for myself.



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    Registered User Jonathan Peck's Avatar
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    You seem to be reading alot of things into what people have said that they never said. In that regard, you might as well be talking to yourself. Funny how you are calling everyone else ignorant.....among other things, just because they don't agree with you. The only one who is rushing to judgement is you. Take a breath and stop fighting so hard to win. You are killing what was otherwise a very intersting discussion just to defend a position that probably most everybody already agrees with
    And now for today's weather....sunny, with a chance of legs

    "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln

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    Yeah, Captain, I thought so. Let me know where I misquoted you. Or where I misread stuff (oh, I actually used quotes from the thread!) Be sure to quote me where I called people ignorant...-You called out this:

    Quote Originally Posted by
    I think alot of modern players, like the ones that graduate from Berklee even, tend to play more with their heads than their hearts. They might have larger musical vocabularies, but the raw emotional power of the gut player when missing can sound slick.
    So who are the Berklee graduates you cite? If you make statements like that, surely you can back them up!

    What rush to judgement? I think you got it backwards, friend...



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    Registered User Jonathan Peck's Avatar
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    Hey John,

    I didn't want to go there, but since you've cornered me and you like quotes AND you want to fight, what do you think of these quotes?

    "It seems like it sucks every last bit of spontinaity and creativity out of you and you're doomed to play varations of Charlie Parker for the rest of your life with a gig bag strapped to your back like some kind of ponytailed turtle in an endless quest for studio gigs."

    "You know, I WENT to Berklee, and that's pretty much it."

    "around three years into my berklee education I realized that i was surrounded not only dozens of insanely talented musicians but also hundreds of boring soulless hacks. A great school if you bother to take advantage of it, a big waste of time and money if you'd rather go get baked. WORD"

    "After I found myself with chops I totally abandon the technical aspects of playing and now I enjoy the fact that no one would be able to recognize that I went to Berklee or that I even practiced the amount that I did during that phase of my life."

    "I Can also assure you Berklee is a JAZZ school, guys. Having played w/ at least 50 players who graduated there, my experience w/ them was that they were all excellent
    technical guitarists who had near total mastery of their
    instrument but for the most part played souless, mechanical, self-masturbatory licks with no feeling. Just my experience."


    Having not attended Berklee myself, I'll have to trely on the words of students who have. Can we still be friends?
    And now for today's weather....sunny, with a chance of legs

    "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln

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    I don't have a dog in this fight, so this question is more out of morbid curiousity. Cap'n, where did you find these quotes? And, you still haven't named any examples of souless Berklee grads. The quotes you provided were pretty obvious, too- you could say that about any large institution. Just remove "Berklee" from the sentence and plug in a different university name. I mean, c'mon on, if you go to college to go get high all the time, you're gonna miss out on a lot of stuff, regardless of whether it's NEC, North Texas, GIT, or Caltech. And I think the original poster's premise is flawed to begin with. You have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight with old music, so the cream has risen to the top. How hard have you searched through new stuff to find the nuggets? With the advent of the internet and improved distribution, there is way more sifting to go through. And, I have sat 5 feet away from John McGann while he's ripped through Limehouse blues. Dude's got soul, no doubt. Just because he can explain why he plays something instead of shining you on and saying "I just play what I feel" doesn't automatically disqualify him from being a "from-the-gut" player. Sorry for the book I've written here, but I like to play with soul, but I also like to know why what I'm doing sounds good (or bad, for that matter). YMMV, IMHO, blah blah.
    Cheers,
    Max
    I laid the tracks, never rode the train.

  12. #62
    Registered User Jonathan Peck's Avatar
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    Max,

    I totally agree 100% with everything that you've said. I like new music. I just bought the new Cadilac Sky album, I have just about everything that Thile has come out with, as well as 2,000 more songs on my i-pod that's sitting on my desk that contains only about half of my bluegrass collection (I like to shuffle all and get some pretty weird segways otherwise)). I have another i-pod that contains over 20,000 songs which encompasses my classical, rock, opera, jazz, swing, funk, early blues, heavy metal, soul and R&B albums.

    My XM presets in my car cover a wide variety of musical genres and time periods.

    I have a stack of Steffey transcriptions here that I just punched and put in a binder which should keep me busy for the next four months.

    I listen to alot of music and apreciate it, and some music speaks to me. Some music I can listen to over and over and never get tired of listening to it, and other music I can only listen to in small doses at a time. I love music, I'm passionate about and I don't think that my opinion counts any less than anyone elses.

    I already apologized to John in an earlier post, but he wants to take it all the way with me. I'm not intimidated and I'm not going to back down just because he's a moderator and a professional musician. I would prefer a civil discourse, but it seems that his tactic is to back me into a position and force me to defend it.

    That is all.
    And now for today's weather....sunny, with a chance of legs

    "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln

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    Captain- We can still be friends for sure. I'm not trying to take it all the way with you, just to get you to name the graduates you mentioned who play from the head. Why take a position you can't defend, and complain if someone calls you on it? You shared some tales of friends for whom Berklee didn't work, but it still doesn't prove your original point. One can be a musical Nowhere Man whether they are at Berklee or Harvard or Joe's Bar and Grill...

    Berklee has around 5000 students per semester. There are bound to be some bad experiences...MY own experiences here as a student in the '70's weren't 100% positive either...and not all the 'soulless hacks' are even performance majors; many come here from composition or film scoring or studio engineering, and aren't practing players as such- Many people leave Berklee barely able to play, not because of the school's failings, but because of their own choices...

    I still think sweeping generalizations based on heresay is not good policy, especially when your original intent is not to offend. I wish i could have the bluegrass guitar lab students I just gave a final exam to chip in here about THEIR experiences at Berklee, or my Celtic or Django ensembles, etc.... or maybe I could suggest you look up some great Nashville players who ARE Berklee grads who HAPPEN to be SUCCESSFUL (in spite of their education?!?!?) like Casey Driessen (raw emotional power), Chris Pandolfi (guts) or Charlie Hutto (gonads)... but I'll just hope for them to go into the world and let the music do the talking- which, in the end, settles all arguments anyway.



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    You are starting to sound like an old martial arts movie:
    "Your Kung Fu No Good, Mine is only Kung Fu any Good" I still hold that there is an enormous number of musicians out there far superior to myself and if I can learn something from any of them I am happy and if I want to bellyache about something I will call a banjo player I know. Have some fun!
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  15. #65
    Registered User Jonathan Peck's Avatar
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    "Captain- We can still be friends for sure. I'm not trying to take it all the way with you, just to get you to name the graduates you mentioned who play from the head. Why take a position you can't defend, and complain if someone calls you on it?"

    Now come on John, that's not completely fair. What if I said name the bad jazz players or the lame bluegrass.

    "There's great jazz and bad jazz; great bluegrass and totally lame bluegrass."

    Somebody sent me a PM informing me that you are both a graduate and instructor at Berklee, so I completely understand how my comment set you off and probably would have done the same if our positions were reversed.

    BTW - I wish I would have attended Berklee, even if just to be half as lame as those guys you mentioned
    And now for today's weather....sunny, with a chance of legs

    "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln

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    Now that we are all friends again, I would have to just bring in one non-bluegrass name, but someone who had great effect on the history of bluegrass music :

    Django Reinhardt

    A huge influence on many great old school bluegrass players including Clarence White. He wasn't for book learnin', had as much or more soul and imagination of just about any of his contemporaries- yet he knew exactly what he was doing, if only on his own terms and in his own world.

    Oh yeah, music- that was the original topic! "Not like they used to"...Django has many hundreds of followers in his footsteps, many great players playing his music- but there is only one Django, and he's never been duplicated.

    Peace y'all...
    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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  17. #67
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    if you think monroe even might play like adam steffey if he played a better set up,
    you are either
    A: on drugs, give me some.
    B. totaly dissalussioned
    C. completley missing the point of bill monroe's bluegrass

    you be the judge!

  18. #68
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    My quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by
    Maybe he'd have sounded more like Adam Steffy with an easy playing mandolin (that's tongue in cheek, son)...
    John,

    A: look up "tongue in cheek" in the dictionary
    B: develop a sense of humor
    C: Ignore my posts. What do I know about Bill Monroe or bluegrass? You be the judge! Get to know me! I might be as dumb as I look, or maybe not!

    PS- while you have the dictionary, check out the spelling and the definition of "disillusioned":

    "freed from illusion". Free at last!!! ##



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    john whats your deal with raining on my parade? have some GRACE when someone comes any where near touching on something that might remotely offend you, ill admit im not exactly ghandi over here but none of this was even in the least bit appropriate to the context! and you tell me to develop a sense of humor? i joked all over this thread! the last one i just posted was a joke, and you are here telling me to develop a sense of humor? RIGHT AFTER A JOKE? what is your deal man!
    (all together now) WHATS WITH THE ANIMOSITY!!

    you really draged this one down in the dirt.

  20. #70
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    Raining on your parade? Sorry! Looked to me like you were missing the whole point of my joke!

    I'll wipe off the dirt and take it with me now. See ya. I still wanna know who the Jimmy Martin of R and B is, though...



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    wow that was a heartfelt apology.

  22. #72
    Registered User Tom Smart's Avatar
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    The sad thing about the Internet is that highly educated, qualified, accomplished and helpful people like Don Stiernberg, Niles Hokkanen and, yes, John McGann, are on an equal footing with people who are actually proud of their lack of these qualities.

    Education doesn't detract from a person's soul, abilities, credibility or anything else. Whatever a person is to begin with, education always adds more. Always.

    When you have an opportunity to learn something from those who are wiser--and yes, maybe even older--than yourself, take it. Even if you end up disagreeing with your mentor, at least your opinion will be informed.

    After a few years of embracing learning rather than scoffing at the learned, you might even find yourself becoming "totaly dissalussioned" with your former self.
    "Few noises are so disagreeable as the sound of the picking of a mandolin."

  23. #73
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    if you have to leave rather than be not so offensive, then thats fairly amazing. #and to have to tell us about it seals the deal, twice!




  24. #74
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    who ever said they were proud of not being a college grad? im not a college grad, but im proud of myself anyway.
    again someone is bringing in totaly weird stuff!

    lets be frank here, the only reason why jmcgann posted here in this particular thread was because someone posted first.
    he probably didnt even read this thread till then, and probably doesnt cruise the bluegrass section much considering his additude about the music.
    that is a sincere observation.
    so with that said, what is the stake in this?

    the whole thing is about ego.
    somewhere along the line things got flared up.

    if this could have been handled with more grace, this conversation could have had some merit.

    wanna drop names on us too? #who cares man, its just open conversation, OBVIOUSLY everything they say is not GOLD!

    people who are NOT highly educated qualified or accomplished are EQUALS to your names you dropped, and their comments may bear as much knowlege as anyone elses.

    would this board be better if the 90 some percent of us who are "nobody" said nothing?

    nobody here had a problem with learning from someone, and to the casual observer the obvious thing would be is that the guy spewing the gunk was not the wiser!!!

    you have no idea who i am, and you can go make statements like i dont know how to "embrace learning" . you are totaly off base.
    i dont need to go into my personal history but i will say that i am a skilled craftsman and artisan, and have studied and LEARNED for YEARS.
    just because some guy who you have some kind of liking for spouts off on a message board and i dont like it doesnt mean a darn thing about learning.

    you would be foolish to make such a statement about me, if you knew me at all. #

    the sad thing about the internet is that people say things like this
    "I still think sweeping generalizations based on heresay is not good policy, especially when your original intent is not to offend."

    right along while they keep doing it and doing it and doing it.




  25. #75
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    unless he truely means to offend then that makes perfect sense.

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