Evening prayer blues

[Strobel]

Could someone please explain the structure of Evening Prayer Blues to me? I've looked at both mandozine table edit versions (Bibey and Compton) and can't figure it out. Is there an A part and B part? How long are they? It seems to repeat but I can't figure ou the length of the sections.

[John Hill]

Have you tried out the Compton/Long version on their "Stomp" CD? It's the only version I'd heard until Jim Richter did a recording on youtube. That may point you in the right direction. Also, Todd Collins' book on Monroe Instrumentals covers it and that should help as well.

[sgarrity]

the tune is structured AABA

[evanreilly]

I believe the tune is based upon a call and response, as would have been found in older southern black churches.

[Spruce]

the tune is structured AABA

Is it??

I'm hearing AABB with a 2 bar tag on the end of the whole shebang....

[sgarrity]

Hhmmmm......after listening to a few versions I think I'm more confused than when this began. On Master of Bluegrass I hear Monroe play AAB and the last time through they fade out on an A part. I think I hear about the same on "Stomp". I've always played it AABA but maybe that was just me trying to square it off a little. I still don't hear AABB though Bruce. What recording are you listening to? This is one of my favorites to play and I'd sure like to be playin' it close to right.

Shaun

[Spruce]

"What recording are you listening to? "

I guess I really picked it up off that Richard Greene and the Grass is Greener recording. #
Buell Neidlinger played bass on that recording, and he's the one who got me into the tune....

The Monroe MOB version kinda wanders all over the place, as does the only live version of Bill playing it that I've ever heard from Vancouver 11/3/1980...

So there might not be an answer to: #"Could someone please explain the structure of Evening Prayer Blues to me?" #

[JimRichter]

I disagree with you on this one Bruce. The MOB version doesn't wander all over the place. The basic AABB structure is there. I think the confusion there is the second mandolin (I think it was Wayne Lewis?) as well as Monroe's bullheadedness in mixing that album (he was in some bickering with Butch at the time which led to Monroe making some crass choices regarding Butch's banjo parts)

The tune is AABB. There is one distinct "A" line that is repeated twice. There is another distinct "B" line that is repeated twice, although the second time through it changes a hair and then has the Wheel Hoss short measure tag at the end.

Really, the definitive version/interpretation of this tune is by Mike Compton. Mike has made it his own, as he has Ebeneezer Dangerfield, Old Dangerfield, Old Mountaineer, or Tanyards. And truth be told, any of us learning these tunes today will refer to Compton's approach even if we are studying the original Monroe source material. Mike, to some degree, as reinvented Monroe. Mike has a lot more blues and Mississippi in his playing than Monroe and his approach is much more aggressive.

Here was my version of Evening Prayer Blues, influenced by Compton as well as picking with Butch Robins.

Evening Prayer Blues

Jim

[sgarrity]

I'm reading this at work this morning, so I'll have to wait until I get home tonight to delve into it a little further but I just don't hear the B part being repeated a second time. I guess I'll just have to wait until Monroe Camp in September and get Mike to show me in person.

Shaun

[Jeroen]

Good question.
I have been trying to find and feel the core structure in Mike Compton's great version for a long time.

An A part in Mike Compton's version seems to consist of two 6 count elements and a 3 count tag.
His B part is more like 4 X 4 counts and a 3 count tag (AAB)
You could also call that AABB of course, where a B would be 2x4 counts and only the second B has the 3 count tag.
I have no idea how to devide those counts over bars or half bars. The way Compton's 2 A parts are tabbed over 15 whole bars in the mandozine tabledit file does not look right to me.

Jim Richter, your version on Youtube is even stranger:
You seem to add one half count in each A part and you place melodic elements a bit differently in the A part.
I have no idea which original should be followed.

Does anyone have DeFord Baileys original somewhere? Isn't that one timed very freely?
Is Mike Compton's version built up like Monroe's?
I haven't heard that one for a long time.

[Jmoss]

Frank plays it here on Adventures in Bluegrass 3 #(ABIII)
http://www.rentalfilm.com/AB3/

We play the tune. #I had Monroe play it a few times
for me on stage. #It is AABB but it is not strictly tied
to that format as you are free to stretch out. #I think you
go with the feel and hopefully the band is listening. #
When you look at the mystical nature of that type of blues
and the feeling we are creating Art and not simply a
recital of a fixed tune... High Art and Spirituality...!

I say all that, but if I were to listen to this I am sure
I would find an AABB format. #The tune is not that
easy for banjo players to learn... #I have found...
When we played that at Bean Blossom the audience
suddenly stood up and screamed. #It really shocked us.

Jim Moss
FWB

[Spruce]

"I disagree with you on this one Bruce. #The MOB version doesn't wander all over the place."

Well, maybe not "all over the place," but there's some extra beats in there (1:30 for instance) and timings that don't match up from pass-to-pass...
And the AABB "arrangement" breaks down during the "solos"....

I'm trying to figure out where I got the 2 bar tag that I play to end the whole song, 'cause it ain't in the MOB version. #I think Butch B. and the boys play it that way on that "Wolves" CD I was talking about....
I'll have to go have a listen....

"Does anyone have DeFord Baileys original somewhere? Isn't that one timed very freely?
"

I have it...
And I guarantee you I could play it for you cold, and you'd never figure out that it was ELP (Deford called it "Evening Prayer")....
I'll see if I can post it here for everyone to have a listen to.....

Oh, I'm listening now and the Monroe Vancouver version is all over the place. #The first time through it's AB, then AABB, with some typical Monroe added and subtracted beats...

"Is Mike Compton's version built up like Monroe's?"

Well, he plays a version based on Deford's that segues into a version based on Bill's...
2 different keys too, as I remember...?

[Perry]

To add confusion check out the excellent version of Mike Compton playing Evening Prayer Blues from a Kaufman Kamp in I think 1999 (the one where Mike says "bless you" in the middle to someone who sneezed in the class). I believe this is the one tabbed on Mandozine as well. Some of the variations are so different they could be considered 'sections'.

not simply a
recital of a fixed tune

I think that's a good way of looking at EPB.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I've had a really hard time putting this one together. I can play all the parts okay, it's just the structure that gets me.
Part of the problem is that no one around here plays it, so I just kind of free-form it. Bruce sent me a file with him playing it that seemed to clear it up a little. From murky to hazy.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

I loved Frank's version. He DOES put a hurting on it. BTW. I saw him in Richmond, VA---he is great.

Here is MC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x99v7DfS3dg

[Perry]

I loved Frank's version. He DOES put a hurting on it.

That first variation he does up the neck with the open and closed strings...wow that's 'bad' and I mean good!

[Spruce]

That MC/DL version throws "that" tag on the end of 2nd B part on the Monroe version...

Where did that tag originate? Not from Bill...
It's nowhere to be seen on the MOB version...

[earthsave]

There is a TEF file of that one, meaning Mike Compton's version.

[johnhgayjr]

That MC/DL version throws "that" tag on the end of 2nd B part on the Monroe version...

Where did that tag originate? #Not from Bill...
It's nowhere to be seen on the MOB version...

I think the little tag originated with Compton. #I knew the tune from Monroe before I ever heard Compton do it. #Compton says Monroe got it from #DeFord Baily - a black harmonica player on the Opry in the 40's - 50's'. # A few years ago at Nashcamp, Compton played a tape of DeFord's version. #Very difficult to find a pattern n DeFord's version. #Compton said he listed to it over and over to finally pick out a pattern. #I think Compton's version is a blend of DeFord's and Monroe's.

[Spruce]

"Very difficult to find a pattern n DeFord's version."

I'll say....
Here's Deford's version of "Evening Prayer"...

I think you could play that version cold for 100 mando players familiar with the Monroe version, and they'd never make the connection.... # # #

[evanreilly]

Spruce: thanks for putting that version up.
And, yeah, I did not make the connection at all!
Maybe a very slowed-down version of it??

[Spruce]

"Maybe a very slowed-down version of it??"

Well, I have this image of Bill and Deford playing it backstage at the Opry, and what Bill came up with just might be a counterpoint to Deford's take on the tune?
I dunno...

Anyway, here's that live version of EPB from Vancouver (11/3/1980) that I was talking about...

If anyone else has any live versions of Monroe playing EPB, I'd love to hear 'em...

This is the only one I've ever heard...

[Jeroen]

Thanks Spruce, for those recordings. Very obscure indeed: DeFord Bailey's "original".

[cooper4205]

the 25 Monroe instrumentals book has it AAB in 3/2 time

[swampstomper]

To me the attraction of this tune is the free interpretation. The Bibey and David Davis versions are fine but don't capture the spirit of the call-and-response as captured by Bailey and channelled by Monroe. Agrred that the Compton "Stomp" version will be the gold standard. When I talked to him about it at a NBB concert in Amsterdam last year he told me to pay special attention to the first part, in A on the low strings.