just trying to understand the economics here. after all, the title of the thread is mandolin building costs per hour... and the economics don't add up to a living is what i'm seeing.
just trying to understand the economics here. after all, the title of the thread is mandolin building costs per hour... and the economics don't add up to a living is what i'm seeing.
Bingo!
However long it took Hans to build my Model 21 does not matter to me because it is worth every penny.
Hope you don't retire just yet Hans.
Bill
There are a lot of differences in the hours it can take to build a mandolin. The kind of mandolin, the exactness of the graduations, the equipment to build with, the experience, the kind of finish used, whether the f holes are bound or unbound, the amount of binding, the kinds of woods used, the types of adhesives used in the build, the determination to use lacquer or varnish, oil varnish or spirit varnish, the amount of french polish (if any) and how it is applied. These all affect the amount of time it takes to build a mandolin. If you are talking about a bare bones mandolin like the A9, it will take much less time than the Lawson with binding everywhere and the f holes bound. It even takes more time to build the MM with oil varnish and french polish. The DMM takes many more hours because of the distressing process. Everyone builds with different criteria and different purpose and that makes a difference in how long it takes to build. I can easily see a spread of time in building from 120 to 400 hours when you take into consideration all the above elements. Then the last factor is that some do not build for much more than the love of the art. I applaud them and their work. I also applaud those who do it as a business and I hope they make well in the process. I think many of our builders have underpriced the work they do becuase they are afraid to ask for more money. I think they could easily raise thier prices a bit and still sell all they can build. Unless they don't build a good one that is. Just my opinion.
Have a Great Day!
Joe Vest
I think the point made so far has been that F-style mandolins aren't the most profitable way to use advanced wood working skills, but, for some, it pays off in immaterial ways.
I live in a town where there is a significant workforce shortage and lots of new development. There are 4 cabinet shop owners willing to start me out at $25-30/hr. I just started doing a bit of cad/cam/cnc consulting for a small manufacturing company at $30/hr. The wages available to me are more than double what I'm making building mandolins. But, I am not inspired to work full-time on cabinets or computers. My passion is with mandolins and I'll take a significantly lower wage for work that I enjoy.
It is possible to make a living building mandolins (even F-styles) but its not easy when compared to other woodworking endeavors. I've worked out the time frame and pricing that I need to achieve to make a decent living, I'm not there yet but I'm quickly moving in the right direction. It is a good idea for anyone interested in being a professional luthier (or a professional anything) to work out a business plan and really understand what it will take to make things work. The numbers for a mandolin business are somewhat intimidating.
For me I bought a rental house just outside Boulder in the early 80's and sold it last year. I'm going to make mandolins till that money's gone.
This is unfortunately too true a story. I knew the economics didn't add up when I got into this. I left behind $30/hour with bennies for this. I did however just renewed my state license and keep up my basic union dues just in case. But this was something I wanted to take a shot at for the last 30 years.
We were able to pay off the house and we have no kids, but health insurance kind of took over where the mortgage left off.
Don't look for any posts from me with a stack of mandolins ready to bind like Andrew M. or have a dozen ready to finish like Bill B.
Rick, I did say that when it comes to F styles, I'm slower than most. <g>
But that scroll and headstock really does add a ton of time, and for me, it takes a few tries to get them right, adding more and more time. An A style can be routed with regular binding equipment, all the way around in one pass. An F style is nearly all handwork. An A style's body bindings are one piece, all the way around. No jointing, except for the heel button, if you want to bind that part(A styles are also less traditional, and we can get away with less, or different, detailing)... No pre bending, not nothing... Scraping or masking takes minutes, not hours... Same goes for bending the rim set. Half as many blocks. No points. Then there's the headstock. No compound angles, no tiny little scroll, just a simple headstock... Carving isn't too different, but the A is symmetrical and the F isn't, and that scroll is finicky, slow work if you don't have a killer CNC....
In short, an A style mandolin is just as easy and simple as an archtop guitar, but scaled down. An F style is a whole 'nuther beast. To fully understand it, you need to build a few.
Oh, and I always priced my A at 1/4 to 1/5 the cost of of my F....
Add to Mario's list of time sinks built into the F style mando the simple fact that the scroll that you spent all that time on is sticking up there right in the way of the neck set, the fret work, the finish process, etc.
Only by building both, F and A, am I able to fully appreciate how much extra work and time the F presents.
FWIW, I built two F-5 style mandolins, together, about 15 years ago and kept accurate records of the time I spent on them. There was a time clock on the wall of the shop I was working in in those days, and I punched a time card whenever I would start to work on the mandolins, and punched out when I would stop working on them. When the two mandolins were done, I had about 180+ hours in them. That's about 90+ hours per. (One was sunburst, and one was blond.) I don't know exactly how long an F takes me now, but it's more than 90 hours for several reasons, not the least of which is I'm building better mandolins now, and they take more time.
John Hamlett
www.hamlettinstruments.com
No one tells an electrician they should take minimum wage and be proud to do their work. I think it's a shame that luthiers can't charge what their instruments are worth becasue they have to compete with factories. I know the factory folks aren't getting rich either but they can make a mandolin cheaper and faster than some dude in his basement. I don't know how or when or why prices for Gilchrists or Nuggets went through the roof, but it seems like very few folks like them are getting their dues.
There is nothing really so unique about luthiers and the time/money variables they face. I'd consider luthiers more like artists than like craftsmen. That puts them in a category with other visual artists, musicians, actors...and so on. I'll bet less than 1% of all those artists make a "decent" living doing only the thing they love most--their art. Most have day jobs, a spouse who works, or some kind of endowment. The term "starving artist" is probably not that much of a metaphor.
I have the greatest respect for good artists, and certainly for the luthiers I have had the pleasure of 'getting to know' here at the Cafe.
For those who think that their luthier is "not getting his dues," how about paying twice the asking price for your next mandolin? And, the reason any luthier is "afraid" to raise prices, is because he/she knows it won't sell at that price.
We're all stuck in pretty much the same market.
markishandsome...You are wrong about the cost of building in a factory as opposed to a guy in his basement. We have FAR more expenses and it takes us about the same amount of time as a good small shop to build our mandolins. Many of the parts do not have any discount applied to them becuase you build x number in a years time. The cost is the cost for materials and then we have labor, rent, utilities, etc. that are far in excess of most small builders. I'm not complaining about it, but our cost is substantial. The guys who work here are doing it for the love of it also. Most of us could make better wages doing other things but we love what we do.
I have the pleasure of getting up every morning excited and cannot wait to get to work. Not everything I have to do is fun or always pleasant, but I get to work with the finest people on the earth and play with the finest instruments on the earth (we work on all brands and kinds of stringed instruments) and meet the greatest people. I get to do all this and then they actually pay me! What more could a guy ask for! I would like more money, but money is not the only reason to show up every morning and do a great job. Just my opinion on the last paragraph.
Have a Great Day!
Joe Vest
FWIW, and no offense intended to anyone, I think it's dangerous to consider oneself an artist when making things. I think it's fine if other people want to consider a luthier, or anyone else, an artist. But when the person himself (herself) starts thinking too strongly of themself as an artiste, I think we're getting into dangerous territory, especially if one intends to make a living at it, or make a reasonable profit doing it. It's a business once you get past the first couple instruments and have serious aspirations. To think of yourself otherwise is kind of la-la land. I consider luthiers to be extremely good craftsmen and always striving to get a better product out of their shops. If other people want to consider what we do as art, fine. And that's not to say that I don't respect what I do. I do.
Dale Ludewig
http://www.ludewigmandolins.com
I remember an art teacher telling me once that an artist takes the time to notice subtle nuances of their creation. I can recall thinking I was finished with a step only to notice more after a break. I guess you start making better instruments after some time, and eventually become faster or notice even more areas for improvement. Two days to carve a top and back is to fast in my opinion.
david blair
I've stayed out of this as best I could, but when you start talking about artists and such... I've been dabbling with building since 1974 and for some reason I've got in my head that I HAVE to build. Back then it was sort of a hippie cool thing to do, building. Now, seems I leave all the house chores and upkeep and go to the shop as much as I can. I do make money at it, my overhead is very low, but I have to work a day job. That doesn't bother me, as long as I have something, anything, hopefully a few, going in the shop at all times. I know you have to have money to live, my wife reminds me from time to time, but money isn't everything, and it sure doesn't satisfy the part of me that has to build. I think that is the part of this that we share with the artist, but I consider myself a craftsman.
<< I don't know how or when or why prices for Gilchrists or Nuggets went through the roof,
but it seems like very few folks like them are getting their dues.>>
Yeah, but those guys have paid their dues! Their prices only exploded in the last 5 or 7 years
and they were working down lists where the purchase price was considerably lower. I don't care if
you call a luthier a master-craftsman.....or an artist.....but there are a handful of very experienced
luthiers, with decades of experience.......hundreds of instruments. That they can finally earn a decent
living based on their reputation from HARD work....for years...up the ladder of success, is great! I think others
will get their "due" when it is earned. IMO the very very best at any craft, in any material, are ARTISTS!
This thread seems to have a lot of us thinking about why we do what we do. I only said I thought luthiers were "more like artists than like craftsmen." By that I meant that most of you are self-employed, work alone, have no unions, etc. You place the risk of success or failure on your work alone--and the ability to sell it.
I do think some of you are truly artists, and all of you are certainly highly skilled, specialized craftsmen. The most successful luthiers must certainly have to be good business people as well as talented. I'm not sure where people like Kemnitzer, Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, and a very few others fall in this mix. Talented, smart, and lucky would be my guess.
And speaking of luck, I'd say that anyone who can even "get by" while doing a job that you love, is VERY lucky.
How many of you builders have kids...and health insurance...
What do kids and insurance have to do with how many hours it takes to build an instrument?
Mario, if you don't know, then it's because A) you're Canadian and you have a national health insurance program there, and B) You're probably not paying for a kid's expenses. In the US, private health insurance on a decent plan can cost a good $960.00 a month...that's what I've been paying for the past year... And kids.... Well, the real point is that if you don't have much in the way of expenses, then you can afford to build F style mandolins!
I built my first F-style mandolin because I couldn't afford to buy one like I wanted. #I build the 2nd and 3rd because I thought that I could improve on the first, which I think I did. #My 4th is already spoken for, so the fact that I'm actually going to get paid for my work has given me a great deal of interest in this thread. #It is also very interesting to see the comments of the folks here that do this for a living. #I guess the answer might be (for me at least) that we all are doing this because it is a passion -- that there is a REAL feeling of accomplishment to see those blocks of wood turn into an instrument with our own hands, and to have someone else recognize that effort and actually want to reward us for that effort makes it even sweeter.
I have a very good job with benefits, but I still have the desire to go out in the garage and make mandolins. #Even if I never sold another, I think my house would someday be filled with many, many instruments, if for no other reason that it's what I want to do. #At some point, money isn't the object.
Right now, I have no problem doing this for $5.71/hour. #
Professional artists (including luthiers if you wish) are businesspeople too. Painters sell paintings just like lutheirs sell instruments. Most artists I've met are pretty down-to-earth about their work.
Joe, I don't see how you can say that you don't have it any different from independent luthiers. As a corporation you must be paying all your workers at least minimum wage plus some sort of insurance and other benefits, with enough $$$ left over to take out full page ads in magazines and make some profit to boot otherwise you wouldn't have been in business for over 100 years.
I would hope that most folks base their choice of luthiers on the results, not the angst.
Arthur, I do not disagree that luthiers are artists. I just think it can be dangerous to think of yourself (not you specifically) as one, especially if you're trying to make a living or part on one thinking such. And yes, health insurance and all the other expenses add into the equation. Ultimately, you get paid for what comes out your shop, be it at home in the basement, or a full blown factory, and everything in between. I'm in between. I'm aloneright now at the shop. I have no employee. I wish I did. To find one that would meet my needs would be difficult.
Rick, I think your statement was right on the mark. I would bet that most luthiers on this board would agree to this: We try to do the best we can- produce the best product we can. What that might be is very individual. And we try to do it in a way that we can hopefully make some money doing it. If that's enough or not to make a living at it is something we all struggle with.
I'll say this. I don't know any builder that posts on this forum, individual or corporate (Hi Joe, Peter, etc.), that doesn't want to put out the best they can out of whatever facility they have, with whatever costs are involved, and with whatever method they use to produce their instrument.
So we argue and such. I'll bet that every one of us wishes at some point that we'd made some decision differently as to how we approach our building process. Or marketing. Etc. And then again, maybe not.
Many things to think about. Not just the builders.
I love this discussion.
Dale Ludewig
http://www.ludewigmandolins.com
Rick, I'm aware of your health insurance costs(we pay for ours, also, but we do it via obscene taxation...), and I am aware, also, of what kids can cost these days. But my question remains: how does that affect the time it takes to build an instrument or what we get for it? I mean, two guys working in a factory, side by side; one is single and lives with his parents, the other has 3 kids, a wife and mortgage. Both do the same job, for the same pay, right? Only difference is one has more disposable income left a month's end than the other, but both do the same job.
Why would we be different? Our lifestyle does not dictate what our instruments are and what they fetch. A least it shouldn't. If I decide tomorrow that I'd like to live on a big 'ol ranch and adopt children, my instruments won't go up in value....
I've been involved with my town's arts council. The main thrust of my involvement has been to rid artists of the notion that they have to starve and that art is not valuable. Art is valuable and folks will pay good money for it. However, artists have to follow the same rules as everyone else. That means they have to understand what it takes to make money selling a particular product. An artist can make a living just the same as anyone else, they just have to understand that they are not exempt from the realities of business plans, efficient production, and marketing.
I have no hesitation considering myself or anyone involved in creative work an artist. What I wouldn't consider is that because I am an artist that I am entitled to make a living without engaging in sound business practices.
Here are my two kids. I support them by building mandolins. They aren't old enough to resent me for it yet.
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