Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: Lyon and healey two point plans

  1. #1
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Friday Harbor WA
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    Are the plans for building this mandolin available any where for free or purchase?

    Also, is the Eastman two-point a clone of the old Lyon and healey design. Or are there significant design differences? Same woods?

    One last question. If i build this, or have someone build it for me, i will definitely install a transducer. So knowing that, if you were building this instrument, would you cut F-holes or a round hole into the top? Yes, i am well aware that the original had a round hole.
    Explore some of my published music here

    óJim

    BRW 3-point #65 (2009)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

  2. #2
    Registered User bradeinhorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Croton-on-Hudson, NY
    Posts
    2,226

    Default

    john sullivan:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mandoA_2_front.jpg 
Views:	258 
Size:	15.8 KB 
ID:	22160  
    www.bigdrawbluegrass.com

    Voight A-5
    Bayard GBOM

  3. #3
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    7,316
    Bill Snyder

  4. #4
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Caulifonya
    Posts
    3,098

    Default

    The 2 point f-hole design was also done by D'Angelico.

  5. #5
    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Pottstown, Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    13,953
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    beluga,

    I like your taste in mandos. If you're wanting more information on the L&Hs look at Bob DeVellis's comments in this thread and his website specifically the Mandolin family. The L&H page is an excellent resource. I think the L&H style A with fiddle head asymmetrical body is the most elegant mandolin.

    The Eastman copy is like the style B (traditional mandolin headstock) but with asymmetrical body points.

    I'm commissioning Brian Dean to build one of these. I don't have any links to plans for purchase or free but Bob Devellis's page has plenty of photos. www.frets.com has some photos of all three models in the museum section as well (good detail photos too!).

    Good luck,
    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

    + Give Blood, Save a Life +

  6. #6
    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Whitefish,MT
    Posts
    1,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by
    I'm commissioning Brian Dean to build one of these.
    Jamie! That was you who ordered up the L & H?!? You lucky DUCK! Can't wait till we start seeing pics of that one from Montreal!

  7. #7
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    27,971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (delsbrother @ Mar. 09 2007, 19:55)
    The 2 point f-hole design was also done by D'Angelico.
    John D'A also made this beauty which is closer to the L&H. An exquisite one with an oval hole.

    Jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	damando.jpg 
Views:	162 
Size:	11.3 KB 
ID:	22161  
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  8. #8
    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Pottstown, Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    13,953
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Beluga may have his done before me... I'm shooting for March April 08 delivery. I want Brian to have lots of time to work on it (and get the funds in order)- I really wanted to let him loose from an idea so don't expect a very traditional looking replica. Mine is more of a L&H inspired model. We'll see where this goes. I'm confident he can translate my musings and dreams into wood and wire.

    Back to topic.. As to FF or oval hole I guess it would depend on what kind of tone you're looking for and what you want to play on it. Eastman makes a 2point with F holes and oval (the builders listed above may make one that way too). The Eastman 2 point ff hole model has a 15 fret to body joint vs. 12.

    Jamie



    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

    + Give Blood, Save a Life +

  9. #9
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    University Place, WA (with no university and very little place)
    Posts
    4,090

    Default

    To respond to your original question, I looked for plans some time ago without success. I finally got a rough outline of the body from Neil Deal of Vermont who builds a very nice L&H replica. Here:
    Neil Dean
    Bill Hay
    IM(NS)HO

  10. #10
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Friday Harbor WA
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    Jamie, Yours will be done first, because mine is still just a figment of my imagination. Do you have any pics you can post?

    And please, tell me what woods Mr Dean is using? Will it have F or oval hole? Radiused fingerboard? Will it have a pickup, and if so, what kind? How about that incredible original tailpiece. Eat you heart, all you Loar collectors. I'm also curious about the depth of the sides.

    I'm also very interested to learn if you are thinking of using it for some specific musical style.

    As much as I covet that scrolled headstock, I'll probably opt for something simple because I'll be doing a lot of the work myself, with a less than realistic budget. With some specs, I can probably make the body, but I'll ask a pro luthier to make the neck, radius the fretboard, do the binding, connect everything. I'll varnish it.

    I've been scouring the internet, but I hardly ever find one of these old L&H 2 points for sale. They must not have made very many of them. Or they've all self-destructed over time. can someone guestimate how much i can expect to pay, on the off-chance that a playable one comes up for sale?

    One last comment. I played an oval holed 2 point Eastman at Wintergrass a few weeks back. I have to say that I didn't like the tone of it anywhere near as much as one particular 604 F4 clone I also played at the same booth. Ironically, the best sound of several F4 Eastman's I played there, was the cheapest, least embellished one on display.
    Explore some of my published music here

    óJim

    BRW 3-point #65 (2009)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

  11. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    27,971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (beluga @ Mar. 10 2007, 13:57)
    I've been scouring the internet, but I hardly ever find one of these old L&H 2 points for sale. They must not have made very many of them. Or they've all self-destructed over time. can someone guestimate how much i can expect to pay, on the off-chance that a playable one comes up for sale?
    I assume when you say L&H 2-points you are referring to the carved instruments and not the flat bodied ones.

    There are actually three styles of these carved ones: A, B, and C (the D and E are actually flat-bodied instruments). Top of the line is the A or Professional A with either symmetrical points (early and longer, Gibson-like scale) or asymmetrical with shorter (13 inch) scale. These have the scroll headstock and nowadays go for $3000-4000 and sometimes more. I think Bernunzio had two of them recently.

    The B is similar to the A but without the scroll headstock and with two symmetrical points. I would say apporximate price is around $2-3000

    The C is more shaped like a Gibson A model with no points and a simpler headstock. Prices are around $1500-2000, I would guess.

    All three have (if complete) the fancy L&H tailpiece.

    Yes there are less of these around than Gibsons, for sure and those who own them usually hold onto them. The main design flaw with these is in the neck which has some sort of hard vulcanized fiber or rubber running down the middle. That sometimes causes trouble.

    Jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	washburnconst_1925_sm.gif 
Views:	205 
Size:	140.1 KB 
ID:	22176  
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  12. #12

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by (JEStanek @ Mar. 10 2007, 09:21)
    ,,Eastman makes a 2point with F holes and oval (the builders listed above may make one that way too). #The Eastman 2 point ff hole model has a 15 fret to body joint vs. 12.
    Sorry to hijack. I just love sharing a pic of my 804 off.

    Gibson A9
    Eastman 804D two point, blonde

    Nothing is fool proof for a talented fool

  13. #13
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Friday Harbor WA
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    Thanks for sharing that old article about L&H['s building techniques. I was especially interested by the statement that they keep the finish minimal because varnish only corrupts the wood's ability to vibrate freely.

    They make it sound as if a hewavy finish is all about visual aesthetics over sonic aesthetics. But, I suppose, careful finishing not only attenuates the sound, but it also holds the potential to modulate wood vibration for a more consistent sound among many mandolins made the same way. But how does any builder learn how to control that deadening factor of finish to alter an instrument's resonance for the better?

    And how about that hard rubber truss rod?

    I love your 804D eastman. Let's see the back of it. In my book, it's the most graceful-looking production mandolin being made anywhere.
    Explore some of my published music here

    óJim

    BRW 3-point #65 (2009)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

  14. #14

    Default

    Ask and you shall receive

    Gibson A9
    Eastman 804D two point, blonde

    Nothing is fool proof for a talented fool

  15. #15
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    University Place, WA (with no university and very little place)
    Posts
    4,090

    Default

    Pretty Eastman back. What is the wood, do you know?
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

  16. #16
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    7,316

    Default

    According to Eastman's website the 800 series of mandolins have "highly flamed" maple back and sides.
    Bill Snyder

  17. #17
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    27,971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (beluga @ Mar. 10 2007, 18:59)
    They make it sound as if a heavy finish is all about visual aesthetics over sonic aesthetics. But, I suppose, careful finishing not only attenuates the sound, but it also holds the potential to modulate wood vibration for a more consistent sound among many mandolins made the same way. But how does any builder learn how to control that deadening factor of finish to alter an instrument's resonance for the better?
    That, of course, is advertising copy from 1925, for what it is worth. OTOH many of the best Italian bowlbacks have minimal finish on the soundboard and they do indeed sound wonderful. I think trial and error is prob how a good luthier controls the sound. Also, it is not just finish but a lot of other factors such as graduation in the case of carved instruments and thinness of the topwood in the case of flat or bowled ones.

    I would love to play one of those Eastman 2 pointers and see how close they came to the sweetness of tone of the Lyon & Healy ones I have played.

    Jim
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Posts
    1,631

    Default

    I just learned how to change a .pdf photo into a bit map and import it into Rhino, a surfacing program as a background. Then you can draw a free form curve over the photo clicking frequently to establish points that smooth out as a line. It can then be refined, scaled, and bingo...the start of a CAD drawing from a photo...

    I'm madly learning this stuff so I can program our new CNC machine and do reverse engineering on a lot of our parts. I'll probably continue to work in a combination of hand drawing and then making 1:1 Plexiglas templets so I can get a good feel for the parts, and then I'll digitize the templets and work in CAD. I can photograph templets and bit map them or trace them with a digitizing arm. Best of both worlds...

  19. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    27,971

    Default

    Interesting, Rick, but how do you get the gradation contours into your program from the photos? I would assume you would need that actual instrument there.

    I wonder if Eastman patterned their two point after an actual L&H or just used the photo for a visual pattern. I would think the latter. I don't see the subtlety of the L&H design and I doubt that the Eastman sounds anything better than any other oval hole Eastman.

    BTW Washburn made a pacrim version of the same style two-point in the 1980s, called the Country Mandolin M7SW. I also highly doubt that duplicated the vintage 1920s mandolin's quality either.

    Jim
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  20. #20
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Caulifonya
    Posts
    3,098

    Default

    Rick, I'd go with the digitizing arm. Tracing is OK, but for production you don't want to be futzing with it that much... You'll end up spending as much time cleaning up the surfaces as tracing... You might also want to try a 3D laser scanner (there's a new one out on the market for something like 4 grand, which is dirt cheap for one of those things).

  21. #21
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    27,971

    Default

    Frets.com has pics of the three main carved L&Hs:




    Jim
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  22. #22
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    7,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (beluga @ Mar. 09 2007, 17:54)
    One last question. If i build this, or have someone build it for me, i will definitely install a transducer. So knowing that, if you were building this instrument, would you cut F-holes or a round hole into the top? Yes, i am well aware that the original had a round hole.
    What about the instrument do you desire, the appearance or the tone?
    If it is the tone I would stick with an oval hole. Of course when running it through your amp with a transducer pick-up I don't think you will get the same tonal qualitites as the acoustic version.
    As Rick suggested you could draw up plans for one if you could get accurate measurements from one somewhere.
    Here is a quick drawing I did from one of the photos posted above. This was done in an inexpensive drawing program I like for drawing everything from instruments to floor plans.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	L_Hdrawing.JPG 
Views:	187 
Size:	13.8 KB 
ID:	22192  
    Bill Snyder

  23. #23
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Friday Harbor WA
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    [QUOTE]I wonder if Eastman patterned their two point after an actual L&H or just used the photo for a visual pattern. I would think the latter. I don't see the subtlety of the L&H design and I doubt that the Eastman sounds anything better than any other oval hole Eastman

    Can anyone here tell us how the old L&H compares, sound-wise, to the eastman 804D?
    Explore some of my published music here

    óJim

    BRW 3-point #65 (2009)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

  24. #24
    Luthier Wanna be Sitka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Central Missouri
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Look what I found in the classifieds today...Lyon & Healy




  25. #25
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Friday Harbor WA
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    that is a pristine instrument. Makes me wonder if our current discussion prompted that classified ad. It's out of my league.
    Explore some of my published music here

    óJim

    BRW 3-point #65 (2009)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

Similar Threads

  1. Lyon and Healy A
    By chinatogalway in forum Videos, Pictures & Sound Files
    Replies: 28
    Last: Jul-18-2020, 7:11pm
  2. Lyon & healey octave mandolin ?
    By bluesmandolinman in forum Vintage Instruments
    Replies: 16
    Last: Sep-20-2007, 3:16pm
  3. 3-point plans
    By bluegrassplayer in forum Builders and Repair
    Replies: 6
    Last: Dec-06-2006, 11:56am
  4. Two-Point Plans
    By Tighthead in forum Builders and Repair
    Replies: 16
    Last: Aug-04-2006, 12:39pm
  5. What about Lyon & Healy A ...?
    By wmferg in forum General Mandolin Discussions
    Replies: 6
    Last: Sep-05-2005, 5:48pm

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •