Ktm-9 h20 finish, anyone used it yet?

[The Goat]

has anyone used the ktm-9 stuff from lmii, thinking about using it being water based and all. looks pretty good.
any tips or words of caution would be appreciated.
thanks-kyle

[nelson_luthier]

I have used it and am not impressed. It dries kind of rubbery, is hard to sand and does not cross link completely. While I do like water based finishes you might want to try Target Coatings. I find it superior when it comes to cross linking and sanding. You have to let it cure for about a week before polishing, but it is worth the wait.

Greg

[Joe Mendel]

I have to agree with what Rick Turner said in a previous thread about KTM9,-when Bob Taylor starts using it he will, too. I used it on a guitar I made and hated it, I sanded it off once and tried again, sanded it off again and used nitro. I gave a gallon each of KTM9 sealer and laqcuer away. I won't use it again.

[Bill Snyder]

As always I would suggest a search of old threads. Take a look at this one, and this one.
I have no personal experience with it but my nephew built two beautiful guitars and tried the KTM9 with disasterous results. He has decided that it was a problem with the System 3 epoxy. He plans to stick to french polishing in the future.

[amowry]

I've experimented with both KTM9 and a few of the target products, and I've had better luck with the KTM9. In my experience it was slightly soft and quite flexible for about a week, and then it got quite hard and tough (even a little chipy like lacquer), and buffed out just fine. As long as I used a compatible sealer (shellac) and didn't miss any spots apraying the sealer, the clarity was very good, i.e. indestinguishable from lacquer. The cured film seems to me to be very similar to the Target varnishes, but the Target products seem to be prone to that slight bluish cast. I experimented putting KTM9 on very thick, recoating in rapid succession, and I never got any blue tint. I did add two drops per quart of vintage amber to warm it up a bit. I haven't used it on any instruments that I've sold, but I wouldn't hesitate if someone wanted something similar to lacquer. I've had no problems with crosslinking either, as long as I sprayed an aclohol wash coat at the beginning of the second day, as suggested by Mike Doolin.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

I used KTM9 on a mandola I built, brushing it on over shellac sealer/color coat with similar results. It seemed a bit soft for several days, but hardened after that. Very transparent. Dead easy to use. I wonder if cross linking/curing is temperature dependent?

Woody

[Desert Rose]

Gotta agree with Rick and even take it further

When the bigger makers manufacturers start using it you know it will be good.

EVERY stringed instrument manufacturer is waiting VERY impatiently for these water based products to reach the level of depth and gloss of the common finishes

To this date NONE have come close enough

While some here seem satisfied the large makers with millions of dollars and hundreds of empoloyees lives at stake are not impressed yet.

The day ONE paint maker succedds to the level of common lacquer urethane and poly level of final finish and ease of use, price wont matter they all will switch in a heart beat

Ive been involved in this search since the late seventys when Fender spent $1,000,000 on a Randsburg production system and uv paint, and threw it all away because the results were horrible, they then looked at early watere based paints and the results were worse

Scott

[Jim Hilburn]

In a finish we're looking for 3 things, a good transparent look, durability and how it effects tone. But we're also looking for a way to get it on the instrument without any disasters. Finding one finish that does it all and is also acceptable to buyers is the trick. I believe KTM does 2 of the 3 very well, tone and durability and an acceptable job on #3. It does however have a softer look than nitro and doesn't have a glow like a good spirit varnish. You have to decide if the trade-off's are worth it. I think most people wouldn't notice the difference between KTM and lacquer.
Rick and Scott are looking at finishes based on how well they work in a high volume setting. That has no bearing on what I or most small timers would choose.

[Rick Turner]

I would not say that high volume is our only criterion. Yes, through-put is very, very important to a manufacturer. How would you like to have three or four thousand instruments in cure at any given moment? But the tone, look, durability, lack of imprint issues (a huge problem with water based finishes that I've tried), adhesion, ability to be sanded and rubbed out thin, ease of application, and yes, cost are all very important to folks like Scott and myself.

I've become a true believer in McFadden's polyester system for most of the instruments I make. No, I haven't tried this on a high end mando yet, but I don't think there would be any major issues. It wouldn't have the marketability of varnish on a mando, where you're paying for legend along with finish, but I believe that polyester could be done on mandos to rival nitro lacquer...and it could be sprayed, cured, rubbed out in three days. I'm typically getting film thickness of .005" to .007" in poly, and that is very typical for lacquer, and it's not at all what most folks think of as a poly finish. It doesn't have to look like a surfboard!

The down side to poly is that you do need a real spray booth.

The one other issue that folks bring up is repairability, but I think the repairability of lacquer has been hugely overstated. I've never seen a lacquer repair that doesn't show after six months, and oversprays are hideous. Polyester can be decently repaired with superglue in many cases.

[Jim Hilburn]

Rick, I've only done 4 instruments with KTM-9, but I think I can safely say that imprinting is the least of your worries. That's a varnish problem.
I'm game on the poly, but like you said, the mando guys are a tough crowd.

[Rick Turner]

Imprinting was a killer when I last used a water-born finish, and it triggered the worst review I've ever had of one of my instruments...on Harmony Central where it lives to this day haunting me. OK, so the newer stuff is better, but once burned... I've seen the new stuff, and given that I have a real spray booth I just don't see a single advantage to using it.

[Jim Hilburn]

I have a real spray booth. I even use nitro as the first sealer coat when I do a KTM finish.
I only tried it because there's evidence that you can get a tone closer to varnish than with lacquer and still get the durability.

[Desert Rose]

I agree with Ricks comments completely and will add that while production is important its only ONE aspect.

Both Rick and I are hand craftsmen first and foremost and anything considered must pass this set of tests first before any other point comes into consideration

NOTHING Ive seen in waterbased finishes yes stands up to comparisons with existing finishes in the whole range of concerns, excluding production matters

And I bet its possible Ive seen as much or more than anybody here being involved since the mid seventys in the search and Im talking America and all the range of Asian makers

As I said BELIEVE me when it happens it will be like the great flood, and the company that succeds will be beating away customers

Scott

[nelson_luthier]

Production matters aside, when it comes to small shops you can't beat the water based products from an ease of use stand point. Just the fact that I don't need toxic solvents to clean my equipment and that my wife isn't banning me from the house between coats is enough to get my vote. When the weather turned cold here (for Northern CA) I was actually able to spray several coats of finish and then bring the instrument INSIDE THE HOUSE to cure without one objection. Try that with Nitro.

Yes, I do have to wait much longer before I can polish. Patience is a virtue they say. I am becoming more virtuous every day.

Greg

[Ragamuffin]

For those of you wishing to keep on top of advanced water based finishes I suggest you try General Finishes Precat 181 urethane. I have been very pleased with it all the way around, and found it to be superior to the others out there that I've tried.

[Steve Davis]

Must these finishes be sprayed, or may they be applied by hand as well? What would the difference be in the finished product?

[nelson_luthier]

Spraying will give you a superior result, but I know a few guitar builders who brush or use a foam applicator because they just don't have the equipment. I will sometimes do the initial coats with a brush and then spray the finish coats after level sanding. I work out of my house and there are many times of day when I just can't fire up the compressor.

Greg