Machined instruments

[JEStanek]

This has been my favorite thread in a very long time...

Someone put up this seditious poster at work from despair.com "Quality - The race for quality has no finish line - so technically its more like a death march." I thought it was funny and true but I kept my snickers to myself.

I work in quality in the pharmaceutical industry. I studied hard in school, I have a good job that has allowed me to go from an interest in the mandolin (starting with a Lone Star $100.00 - through Kentucky, Morgan Monroe, Eastman and a Weber) to placing an order with a small shop builder.

If not for the mass produced stuff, I would not have chanced so much money on an instrument and found myself where I am now, commissioning a fine instrument from a small shop builder whose work I admire and speaks to my aesthetic.

I'm in the camp of, if you want to, use the technology for what it is, a tool that is neither good nor evil, it is a tool. Since each piece of wood is different (right?) really good instruments ones can't be cookie cut. Someone who understands wood and lutherie still needs to get in there and put it all together. That's what separates a good instrument from a poor one and a consistently good builder from an inconsistent one. I don't feel either way is better or worse than the other, just different.

Hopefully, there will continue to be a market for small shop mandolin builders. If not, you guys better be like farriers after the car came, apply the talents you have to a new market place or you're SOL. I have to have a back up plan for my job, pharmaceuticals in the US are very tight now due to pressures for lower prices and lots of work is going overseas, if I should lose my job to this I better have a back up plan or the fine craftsmanship of my fine mandolins will be sacrificed for the necessity of keeping the toilets flushing.

Support the arts while you can and they'll stick around.

Jamie

PS Is anyone making their own tuners or fret wire? Don't answer that...

[Chris Baird]

I am looking into making my own tuners. It is a good cnc job.

One thing I want to make clear; just because one uses a cnc doesn't mean one has to make mass produced instruments.

Quote me on this, I will NEVER produce cookie cutter instruments. The asian market is wonderful at this. My niche is custom instruments and my whole process, cnc included, is designed around adaptablility and custom work. The process I have invented for myself is for custom work not cookie cutter instruments. Yes, a cnc is useful for custom builders should they design an adaptable process. #It is also useful for mass production. It is the builder who makes the call, not the tool.

[JEStanek]

Chris, Dale, Brian, Gary, Ken, Andy, John, hope I haven't missed anyone... No way was I even suggesting any of you make cookie cutter instruments, far from it! I know I've gushed about each of your builds in the past. Thanks to all of you for your perspectives on this. I know I've learned a good bit in this thread, as I am sure many other non-builders have too...

Jamie

[brunello97]

I teach at UM's College of Architecture and daily we are involved with integrating CNC milling + plasma cutting, rapid prototyping and a range of 3D material modeling in what we call the FabLab. The whole modern premise around CNC has been based on mass CUSTOMIZATION, not mass PRODUCTION. There are plenty of tools to allow for repetitive mass production of wood products, and they certainly formed the backbone of industrialized woodworking in Grand Rapids one hundred years ago; just a stone's throw from Kalamazoo and a little further to Chicago. The GreatLakesRim as I call it.

While I've enjoyed reading this very thoughtful thread, I think the original question tossed out a red herring, and indicated a perhaps naive lack of familiarity with woodworking technology old or new. The very nature of CNC allows for individualization of pieces through an automated process-with no loss of efficiency, rather than simply the repetition of the same elements under the rubric of efficiency. Chris's post nails it and reflects his obvious experience with the design-process-tool-material continuum. If you are using CNC to mass produce, you may be saving time, but you are wasting technology.

La mano y la macchina. I like it best when they compliment each other, not when they are proposed in opposition.

Mick

[sunburst]

...Is anyone making their own tuners or fret wire?...

Just when I thought I had said all I had to say in this thread...

The owner of the last F5 I finished had trouble with his tuners, and we ended up changing to another set (Waverlys). At one point he said something like; "the only part of the mandolin you didn't make is the tuners, and that's the only part I had any trouble with".

I started designing my own tailpiece because of frustration with what was available at the time. I've still got that frustration with tuners. For years I've been saying; "Don't make me make my own tuners!"

Chris, if you make them, I hope you'll sell them to the rest of us. A set of mandolin tuners designed by someone who understands the wants and needs of players and builders is sorely needed, IMO.

As for fret wire, sigh... where is the harder (SS/"gold") wire in a "standard" mandolin size?...

And, BTW, Mick.
My original intent was to have a dye made to stamp out the blanks from which I make my tailpieces. I eventually settled on water jet cutting, which is controlled by computer. Yep, that's CNC, and If I need to change anything, all I have to do is tweek the digital drawing, and it's done. No re-tooling.

[Larry Simonson]

Until CNC machines develop an "ear" and the other senses required of the luthier, there is no chance of machines replacing humans in making the best mandolins. The uniqueness of each piece of wood and the lack of a widely accepted standard of perfect tone bodes well for human builders.

[Chris Baird]

It is true that there is a niche for affordable Waverly quality tuners. I think it can be done. Question is - who wants to do it? I'd rather build the rest of the instrument. Making tuners is very simple compared to nearly anything else that gets manufactured these days. I nominate Bill James.

[Paul Hostetter]

John - Jescar will make wire in any size of any material, the minimum order isn't huge:

We have in stock two sizes of EVO-01 Gold colored fret wire:

FW9666EVO .079 x .037"
FW9662EVO .090 x .055"

Our other fret wire sizes are possible in EVO with a minimum factory order of 22 lbs (10 kgs).

This is old info (and probably prices). I believe they offer more a couple of sizes now.

I know they make:
FW 9677 .040” x .039” NS18% $39.00/# and in Stainless for $49.00/#

This is a good mandolin size. I much prefer the gold wire to the stainless.

[delsbrother]

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(laser scan of a (Chinese) Cookie Cutter)</span>

[Chris Baird]

The above tuner configuration is "right" only in the sense that it is the vintage configuration. But, after 1928 they figured out that putting the pinion gear below the worm caused a tightening of the gear mesh and consequently improved the design. As the mandolin world is slow to evolve we've still been stuck on a tuner design that was found inferior in 1928. The pinion below worm configuration is actually a better design.

[Chris Baird]

They did. Ferns have tuner posts coming up in the "wrong" place with respect to the inlay. Using the contemporary design requires a redesign of the headstock (or should). You can make a good looking snakehead that fits the contemporary tuner configuration but it won't be traditional Loar era.

[Chris Baird]

The tuner on the right is pre 28' configuration and the one on the left is post 28' configuration. I believe Waverly will make A-style tuners either way.

If I wasn't concerned about being strictly Loar era (and I'm not) I'd prefer the tuners on the left. However, if I was replicating a Loar era headstock I'd need the vintage configuration.

They way I see it; asian made tuner companies copy what is already in existance with out doing enough market research. That is how schaller and grover both came out with a whole line of tuners that turned backwards. They just didn't understand what was really meant by "reverse cut". "Reverse cut" refers to the modern pinion under worm configuration. In order to get the tuners to turn in the right direction they had to reverse the cut on the gears from what they were in the pre 28' configuration. Schaller made a reverse cut tuner but they didn't rearrange the pinion/worm configuration. Grover copied them without thinking.

[Paul Hostetter]

I agree the later configuration works better. Here's a quick photoshop glimpse of two possibilities.

[Paul Hostetter]

Here's a real Loar-era set, from the plundered image above. 1923:



Plate's not the same. They didn't have Phillips-head screws back then.

[Chris Baird]

Hey Hans, is the tone of Dudenbostel, Nugget, Ellis, and Heiden cold to your ears?

[Mario Proulx]

John - Jescar will make wire in any size of any material, the minimum order isn't huge:

They have a SS mandolin wire listed, but they haven't imported any in a long while. Jeff said there wasn't enough demand. So, I demanded! &lt;bg&gt; Actually, it would help if everyone that truly wanted some would contact him and let him know we do want it.... Our minimums are reasonable, but I suspect their's is huge... Vote, and vote often...

You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguments....

[Chris Baird]

Why does the grads from a cnc have to be uniform? Mine certainly aren't. My graduation process is basically the same as it was when I used a dupli-carver. That is, I finish it off by hand with a thumb plane, scrapers, orbital sander, etc. Even if I wanted to do it with the cnc (I could but it would take longer) I could still achieve the same result. It is faster to do the final graduations by hand. Even though I only leave about .050" to work by hand it still takes me about 3 hours per plate of hand graduating. A cnc operator can build as much "funk" into his/her mandolins as is desired.

[thistle3585]

I added .040 into my thickness to allow for flexing during cutting, as well as for final graduation. That can also be easily adjusted to accommodate different materials. It takes 18 minutes to rough cut the inside and outside, including the F holes. So, if I nestle the backs on the machine also, and can bend my sides during the machining time then thats sides, top and back roughed out in about 40 minutes.

For me to do a top and back by hand from the same starting point took a better part of two and a half days because my hands and back weren't up for it. I already spend my days in front of machines running parts, so if I can cut some of that out then I will. If I wasn't able to take advantage of a CNC, then I wouldn't build.

[Paul Hostetter]

We really have several parallel threads going here now. Oops.

[Dale Ludewig]

Andrew, you're running your machine a lot faster xy than I am. But that's just an interesting curiosity that I'd be interested in talking about PM.

Paul- you're right. This thread, as fascinating as it's been, now seems to have grown branches and maybe should be treated as such. Just a suggestion. There's just too much going on here. You first.

[Paul Hostetter]