"fleshing out" fiddle tunes

[Mike Buesseler]

This post might apply to several other forums, but I decided to choose one, rather than try to track replies all over the board. (And, I sincerely hope I get a few replies...)

My basic question has to do with translating fiddle tunes (bluegrass, old-time, celtic, or any other kind, probably) to mandolin. I'm assuming minimum backup, here. Say, guitar and maybe, bass.

It seems that the mandolinist (me, in this instance) has a few choices when trying to make a fiddle tune sound good on mandolin. Without the fiddle's sustain, I can either play more notes per measure (say two eighths for each quarter, or something along those lines), play tremolo (which is really only a choice for slower tunes), or interlace some chord strums into the melody.

Of these choices, I tend to favor the latter, chording along with my own melody. This seems especially suitable for old-time tunes.

Now, the problem is, I'm not very good at this. I don't always know what chord to play or when to insert it into the tune.

Sam Bush is good at this technique, maybe Norman Blake....but, my list runs short after that. Examples of nicely arranged tunes would be very useful. There don't seem to be all that many in the standard repertoire.

So, to boil this down to one question, does anyone have any good advice on how to approach this?

[Red Englemann]

"Norman Blake...

Norman stays true to the melody with both fiddle and mandolin. I don't hear lots of tremelo or excessive notes in his old stuff which I have been copying for over 20 years.

Try strumming the note out after a phrase and see how that sounds to you. This would be the same as a fiddler's shuffle or a violinist's long bow. I know what you are discribing, but I am not sure if I am communicating the idea properly.

red

[Mike Buesseler]

I am not suggesting--or interested in--getting away from the melody at all. I agree, NB stays with it as well or as much as anyone. It's partly what I love about his style. I guess what I'm really wanting to do is to make solos (or something close to it) out of fiddle tunes. I play alone a lot. Single line melodies get old....

[Fred Keller]

Given that you mention "chording," I'd still say you're leaving out the possibility of playing more notes with more strings. What I mean is that you don't have to add more 1/8-notes (more points on a line). You can add drones, double stops, and even full chords to fatten up the sound. That's a more old-time way of interpreting fiddle tunes on the mandolin.

As for how to figure out what chords to play and when, that's gonna take some time and effort on your part.

You can get some information from written sources (Fiddler's Fakebook, et. al.), you can just experiment with various chords (there's no formula--do what sounds good to you), or you can listen to other mando players and try out their ideas. I think Mike Compton's a great one for stripping melody notes from a tune and adding back rhythmic/chordal nuances.

Cheers!

Fred

[250sc]

First off, 8th notes are pretty standard for fiddle tunes, even if the song calls for a whole note you can play 8 8th notes and it fills the same space while keeping the beat strong. (4 quarter note? 2 half notes? Tremolo? what ever sounds good to you in the song)Even if you decide to play a chord over the whole note you will likely strum it more than the single time that a whole note would suggest since arch top mandos have such a strong fundimental tone and relativly short sustain.

"I don't always know what chord to play or when to insert it into the tune."

You should know the chord to the song! That is just a basic part of learning any song. The chord can be a double stop or full 3 or 4 note chord depending on what you want to do.

Listen to how Grisman plays on any of the Tone Poem CDs. (expecially the one with Tony Rice)

Good luck.

[AlanN]

Octave shifting is a good way to vary the pace. Say, Whiskey Before Breakfast...the first measure is D, E, F#, G, A. Try it in 3rd position (first note - D - on the A string, 5th fret).

Another thing to do here is instead of (on D string) 0,2,4,5, open A for the first figure, play open D, then 9th fret G string with pinky, then F# on D string with index, G note with middle, open A. It gets a more ringing thing going.

Just a way to jazz it up.

[Mike Buesseler]

Thanks, you guys (and/or gals)! This is the stuff I need.

250sc, I do know the chord that the guitar would be playing. I guess it's the partial chords--where to find them, which to play--that elude me. You are right: more work, better understanding of those double-stops and the chords themselves.

Please keep this up! (I LOVE this site!)

[Fred Keller]

MikeB:

You can get tons and tons of double-stop exercises and info at mandozine.com in the Tabledit files section. I believe that the Cafe has some here as well. It's a great place to start familiarizing yourself with those shapes. The cool thing is that once you know a few shapes you know all the double-stops: they move around easily on the mandolin.

[250sc]

"I do know the chord that the guitar would be playing. I guess it's the partial chords--where to find them, which to play--that elude me. You are right: more work, better understanding of those double-stops and the chords themselves."

The mandolin would be playing the same chords. If you want to play a partial, just use any two of the notes from the chord. Double stops are just partial chords.

[JGWoods]

While the fiddle might have unlimited "sustain" fiddlers don't usually just sit on a note, they shuffle it or otherwise add a rhythmic element which translates onto the mandolin as repeating or tremelo depending on speed I'd say. Also for fiddle and mandolin the use of more strings makes more volume, always needed on a small instrument so drones, octaves, and double stops come into play to add presence. Beyond that is standard fiddlin' filigree- hemiolas and the like that take a single long note and substitute a bunch of notes instead. I find myself doing that more on the mandolin than I used to. Chances are that unless you are playing a very simple version of a tune you are already embellishing it and it's just a matter of how far you want to go. John McGann has a book on how to fancy up fiddle tunes in the melody line.

[Mike Buesseler]

Well, by dang, I own that John McGann book, and just about every other one he's written. And, you're right, that's sort of what I need. But, the more I think about this and the more comments I get, I think it's filling in the single line melody with chords--or partials--that I need. It just doesn't seem intuitive to me where to strike them.

[Mike Buesseler]

I was hoping for some examples of tunes 'tricked out' like this, btw. I play a version of Barlow Knife, that is just full of partial chord strums. But, I can't find many others. There was a link someone posted around here somewhere of an older guy who really hit this nail on the head. Can't remember his name, but in the video clip, he said he learned to play that way because he was always playing alone. I get that...just having trouble filling in the spaces, I guess...

Maybe I should have just asked for names of tunes played in this style. Butch Baldassari did a CD with David Schnaufer that had some nice stuff. Like "Wolves A Howling." Very wierd tuning on that one, though. I tried it and it was fun, but I couldn't see myself retuning all the time to play one tune..

[JGWoods]

Wolves a Howling -Stripling Brothers. I play it AEAE on the fiddle. I hadn't thought about that tune in a while. I keep a mandolin tuned GDGD and I'll have to give it a go...as soon as I remember the B part.

[Red Englemann]

" I guess what I'm really wanting to do is to make solos (or something close to it) out of fiddle tunes. I play alone a lot. Single line melodies get old.... "

Mike,

I play alone most of the time as well. I think what you are talking about are referred to as "grace" notes or embellishments. Using grace notes as fillers at the end of the phrase.

Last night I was playing Whiskey Before Breakfast and was thinking about your question. I learned my version from Norman when he did a duet with Tony Rice back in the 80's. If you are familar with Norman's version he plays the frist three notes and then continues to pick the last note in a way that a fiddle would shuffle. This provides the sustain between phrases. Perhaps I am speaking of something you already know, but I thought I would give it a try.

red

[allenhopkins]

See if you can find recordings by Kenny Hall, with or without the Sweets Mill String Band. A blind musician, he played a bowl-back mandolin vertically on his knee, picking with his index fingernail. I saw him once thirty-plus years ago at Fox Hollow. As I recall, he was pretty good at mixing melody and chord support.

[Mike Buesseler]

Thanks, Allen. I've heard of Kenny, of course. I'll go look up his music right now...

[Jkf_Alone]

try doing it with a slowed down blackberry blossom or sailors hornpipe. get the nikora Jethro Burns downloads ( i spent 8 hours downloading them with dial up) Jethro plays a boatload of pretty straight fiddle tunes chord/melody style. you can hear just how to do it. listening to him is almost as good as practicing, and ive noticed my playing has improved dramatically just by listening.:laugh:

[Jkf_Alone]

try the B part on soldiers joy too. replacing singles notes with double stops in logical places is easy, just think g d a d (i think) Tip: the A5 2 finger chord (2 2 0 x) works better than an A bar or A double stop

[Mike Buesseler]

Thanks, Jkf,

I've found tabs or midis for some tunes that are real easy to do this with. I guess Soldier's Joy would be one. I use that A chord a lot. I guess I just have to break these tunes down to see where I can insert a chord, or partial. All these ideas are great! Just what I was looking for, and I thank everyone who pitched in here. This site is the BEST!!

[alanh]

I may have missed it, but nobody mentioned Mike Compton in this thread. In my opinion, there is nobody better for playing fiddle tunes with lots of chords and off-beat rhythms. Go to any camp or workshop where he is teaching, and you will really learn a lot about playing fiddle tunes.

[John Flynn]

I would recommend listening to Curtis Buckhannon, with the Buckhannon Brothers and the Ill-Mo Boys. He can "flesh out" a fiddle tune until he sounds like a one-man band, but he can do that still staying true to the melody and without stepping on the other players. He does it with passing tones, tremelo, double stops, slides, hammer-ons, etc. just like everyone else, but he does it as an artful balancing act.